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Gas Quality

16K views 37 replies 13 participants last post by  Wifey'sInsight 
#1 ·
Some of this may have already been discussed on this thread, but thought I would share it as well:

I just spoke to one of the service techs (who has been with Honda for over 10 years) at the dealer where I got my Honda, and he shared some interesting information:

- They use Honda Genuine 0-20 synthetic blend oil for their oil changes for the Insight.
- You can put Full synthetic in an engine that has or had synthetic blend without any issues.
- Your oil life reminder is an indicator of the life left in your oil, not the level of oil in your engine. You should make it a practice to check the dipstick on occasion to see if you are low on oil for any reason, and top it off yourself with a Honda approved oil (Oil & Filter FAQ for Honda Vehicles | Honda Maintenance)
- The oil life percentage indicator will decrease based on the type of driving you do. If your son drive it in sport mode all the time, it will likely decrease the life of the oil quicker than driving it in Eco mode.
- If your Insight hasn't gotten to 15% oil life before 10 to 12 months since your last oil change, change your oil. Never go past a year between oil changes.
- Oil companies that pay more for gasoline get to take the gas out of the top half of the tanker. Those that pay less (like the local Quicky-Mart) get the gas that is in the bottom half of the tanker, which means it is more likely to have contaminents in them.
- It isn't a good practice to let your car's gas get below 1/4 to 1/8 tank, as there is likely to be more "silt" from the bottom of your tank that gets mixed in with the gas that puts a strain on your fuel filter (or may make it through your fuel filter). This becomes more of an issue the older your car gets.
 
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#2 ·
snip
- Oil companies that pay more for gasoline get to take the gas out of the top half of the tanker. Those that pay less (like the local Quicky-Mart) get the gas that is in the bottom half of the tanker, which means it is more likely to have contaminants in them.
- It isn't a good practice to let your car's gas get below 1/4 to 1/8 tank, as there is likely to be more "silt" from the bottom of your tank that gets mixed in with the gas that puts a strain on your fuel filter (or may make it through your fuel filter). his becomes more of an issue the older your car gets.
I'm curious about getting gas from the top half of a tanker. Seems to me they would use gravity to unload the tank. I can't see how you would skim the gasoline off the top. I suspect this is a myth to get you to buy overpriced gasoline from Shell, Exxon, Chevron, etc.

I could not find any studies about leaving 1/4-1/8 gas in the tank before you fill up. Apparently gasoline filters are pretty good and it may not be a problem.

I had 10-years experience with UNOCAL, but was not on the distribution end of things. It was my job to find the oil.
 
#3 ·
I'm curious about getting gas from the top half of a tanker. Seems to me they would use gravity to unload the tank. I can't see how you would skim the gasoline off the top. I suspect this is a myth to get you to buy overpriced gasoline from Shell, Exxon, Chevron, etc. [...] I had 10-years experience with UNOCAL, but was not on the distribution end of things. It was my job to find the oil.
Oil grades are separated by distillation, which involves heating and cooling through a vertical tower. The purest vapor rises to the top and cools (condenses) to a liquid. Its not so much that the top half of tanker is the best; it's the top half of the distillation process, which is separated from lower grades of gas/oil.
 
#5 ·
snip
- Oil companies that pay more for gasoline get to take the gas out of the top half of the tanker. Those that pay less (like the local Quicky-Mart) get the gas that is in the bottom half of the tanker, which means it is more likely to have contaminants in them.
- It isn't a good practice to let your car's gas get below 1/4 to 1/8 tank, as there is likely to be more "silt" from the bottom of your tank that gets mixed in with the gas that puts a strain on your fuel filter (or may make it through your fuel filter). his becomes more of an issue the older your car gets.
I'm curious about getting gas from the top half of a tanker. Seems to me they would use gravity to unload the tank. I can't see how you would skim the gasoline off the top. I suspect this is a myth to get you to buy overpriced gasoline from Shell, Exxon, Chevron, etc.

I could not find any studies about leaving 1/4-1/8 gas in the tank before you fill up. Apparently gasoline filters are pretty good and it may not be a problem.

I had 10-years experience with UNOCAL, but was not on the distribution end of things. It was my job to find the oil.
I was under the impression that another reason not to let the tank get too low was because the fuel is used to physically cool the fuel pump and letting it get too low could cause premature wear on the pump due to higher temperatures.
 
#7 ·
My personal reasoning for fuel ups is 1/4 tank. Minimize the fuel I use just going to the pump. Side effect, less average weight I carry around the better the MPG. Next in wintery conditions, I don't like letting my tank get below 1/2" for safety reasons. Might get stuck somewhere and that is the only thing to keep me warm until help arrives.
 
#8 ·
Talked with a fellow who delivers gas to different stations regarding more expensive stations getting top gas and lesser stations getting bottom gas. He said it was not true. No difference in gas except additives. He had to add them to his delivery, which amounted to dumping a small amount of the additive in the tank.
 
#12 ·
I think "tanker trucks" are being confused with "distillation processing." The original post by Honda2019 mentioned gas quality difference within a tanker delivery, and I agree with you that it is a questionable statement.

Refineries use distillation to separate various segments oil byproducts using their chemical properties. Gasoline is one of the purer cuts, and is pulled as a byproduct toward the top of a distillation column. The EPA specifies a minimum amount of detergent oil companies must add to gasoline. Each oil company formulates their proprietary blend, and has quality tests/ranges for consistency. The gasoline delivered from a refinery via tanker delivery truck is relatively uniform; however tanker deliveries themselves can stir up sludge at the bottom of service station storage tanks due to the liquid volume/mixing.

Happy to geek out further if more info is desired; I have technical background in "Big Oil" which is perhaps the ultimate irony as a hybrid owner. :)
 

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#11 ·
I think the real reason many of us avoid the low cost gas stations is not that they get the dregs of fuel deliveries so trucks can return empty, but rather that they do so from multiple suppliers/brands, and as a result are selling a product of mixed additives....
 
#13 ·
Upcoming problems with oil change and gasoline:
Here's where we all are going to be silently bit unnoticed for awhile. Oil chg. at 8000 miles. Had free oil chg. with coupon , expiring in 3 days. Reluctantly, decided to use coupon providing Honda install Syn. , and I would pay difference. I think they lied. Next stop, one mile away, got 9 gal Mobil gas. NEW SIGN ON STATION SAYS( Now 10% Ethanol ) . On way home , 5 miles, indicator read 45 mpg. Usually, 52 mpg. Checked tires , all OK. I then drove 175 mikes and filled up .Actual showed 45.1 MPG. Drove same route, none over 70 and avg about 45 mph For 8000 miles I avg. overall 52.1 mpg. WHAT Happened???? Does anyone know? It was either the 10% ethanol or possible multi grade oil, instead of SYN.oil. Here's what I believe. We are all getting screwed. Honda installed a special oil with moly originally. You/we cannot buy that oil. That's why they want 12000 oil chg. After you change just be aware of change in mpg.
If it is the 10% Ethanol then we're in trouble. TRUMP wants to raise it to 15% soon to help corn farmers since China won't buy our corn. It approved we all are in real trouble. Might as well buy a big V8 truck.
Lets start a new topic and collect what others are experiencing after oil change.
 
#14 ·
I just skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this was discussed earlier but what kind of gas are you using? I've been using a cheap local brand that I think is low quality and suspect it has to do with my inability to crack the low 50 mpgs. I am seriously considering the much more expensive Chevron gas to see what kind of mileage I get. But even if it's an improvement in mileage, it may be a wash in cost.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Garbage gas, like "Race Track", will not go the distance. When I drove hundreds of miles a day for work, I tried them all. I found BP and Shell to give me the longest range, and that translated to best MPG. On my 2011 Escape that difference was 200+ miles to 400+ miles. BP was more consistent for best range over Shell. Shell had a bit more power at times, but that didn't translate to better range. Marathon and Valero also do pretty well, as I also tried them towing a loaded trailer and they produced good mileage. After trying several local gas stations last winter (including a local Shell station), I couldn't crack 50 MPG in the 30~40 degree weather. I tried a BP station (25 miles from my home) and immediately obtained 50+ MPG in the same WX conditions. And it was consistently staying in the 50+ MPG range. In optimal WX conditions, that BP gas gets me in the 60+ MPG range with an all time high of 72+ MPG. Also, that BP regular gas happens to be around 50 cents cheaper than the local Shell regular gas, so it's worth it. They say it contains up to 10% ethanol, so my next experiment will be to try non-ethanol gas. I have to look for it, although I expect that to cost way too much to be practical (just an experiment). Being in a boating area, I should be able to find it. Hopefully next weekend I'll need a fillup, but with such good gas mileage I may have to wait two weeks!

Phil
 
#16 ·
I primarily use Speedway gas (they bought Hess). I didn't go out of my way in choosing Speedway, they just happen to be the most convenient station. I've used "brand X" gas as well. I can't see a difference. In the end, 87 octane is 87 octane.
 
#19 ·
#24 ·
The only types of gas I would openly endorse, regular 87 octane. Or the lowest octane ethanol free you can find.

The latter is a more efficient fuel, because Ethanol unless specifically tuned for, produces less energy on combustion than gasoline. That being said, it's a preference type of choice. I believe regular gas works out to 4-5 cents per mile, the ethanol free is in the 5-7 cents per mile. Obviously all gas isn't created the same, all gas has additives, so try to stick to "top tier" fuel. That depends on your locality.

Depending on where you live, ethanol free gas can be 87 octane regular as well (at least the last time I was in Ohio, it was ethanol free, all variants). I believe insightfully has had some good luck with 91 ethanol free, and he is the go to guy on data related to different fuel.
 
#25 ·
Depending on where you live, ethanol free gas can be 87 octane regular as well (at least the last time I was in Ohio, it was ethanol free, all variants). I believe insightfully has had some good luck with 91 ethanol free, and he is the go to guy on data related to different fuel.

@PHILBERT has more experience with fuel types, including examples woven through threads like these:
https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/2...mpge-economy/2480-oddity-freak-unicorn-3.html
https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/2...insight-mpg-testing-results-13.html#post15746
https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/2...orld-2019-insight-mpg-testing-results-16.html
https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/1...-60-times-inconsistent-amongst-reviews-3.html

I'm the boring one, in that I just stick to Costco top tier 87 octane. :)
 
#30 ·
I've got a question for you longer owners--Honda manual suggests 87 octane for fueling. Is 85 octane okay, do you users using 87 octane get better mileage. I haven't noticed any knocking in my
engine, of course I only have a couple of hundred miles on mine. . .
Thanks!!!!
 
#31 ·
Didn't even know 85 octane is a thing in the US until you mentioned it...


You have sadly been mislead with every answer to date. You should NOT use 85 or 86 in a car that requires 87, even at higher altitudes.


I just moved from Los Angeles, CA to Denver, CO and have done a lot of research on this.
Basically, 85 and 86 was only ever needed when cars ran on carburetors. The lower octane gas prevented knocking and helped the vehicles run smoother.


Now that 98% of all consumer vehicles do not have carburetors and are, instead, ran using computer-controlled fuel injection systems, the need for 85 and 86 is completely gone. The computers adjust for the altitude and prevent knocking without the need for 85/86. And the reason you want to actually avoid 85 and 86 is that they add significantly more wear and tear to your engine than 87 does. You are essentially damaging your engine by using 85 or 86.


I’ve found that the vast majority of people who live in Denver are under the assumption that 85 and 86 are okay because of the altitude but it’s a case of information being passed down through the decades and nobody questioning it. Everyone assumes that what was good for vehicles several decades ago, must still be good for them but engines have advanced so much that this is a very silly logical fallacy.


Also at play is confirmation bias and other cognitive biases…basically people don’t want to do the research to find out that they, A) have been putting gas in their vehicles that is actually damaging their engines and, B) should start paying for and using “mid-grade” (which is actually just standard in the rest of the country). People have structured their money and lives around paying for this really cheap, really bad gas, so banning 85 and 86 would be akin to the government making cigarettes illegal. People would lose their **** minds.
https://www.quora.com/Denver-CO-Is-...s-manual-states-it-requires-87-octane-minimum
^What I found about 85 octane gas via Quora.


I would use what Honda suggests in the manual unless you want to give them a reason to void your warranty.
 
#34 ·
It's because it isn't correct. You are correct, higher octane fuel resists detonation. The high altitude lower octane blend was to allow a more complete combustion with less oxygen, because of the thinner air. It was intended for carbureted cars, instead of adjusting timing and jets, you would simply run the lower octane fuel with the less oxygenated air.

With the use of MAF, MAP and oxygen sensors, this is no longer needed. The car simply adjusts fuel trim, and timing automatically. Honestly I'm sure if at enough elevation running 85 wouldn't hurt the car, there simply is no need to, and if you ever drive to a lower elevation, you will be risking detonation.
 
#33 ·
I agree with JK919!. I live in Virginia and have never seen 85 octane gas. In my 50 years of driving, all I have seen here is 87, 89, 92 or 93 octane. Years ago, I had a vehicle that would "ping" or knock with 87 octane and I put 89 mid-grade octaane in which stopped the knocking.
 
#36 ·
Found this article interesting, with 'real world' testing of higher octane on different makes. The overall test conclusion was that buying higher octane than recommended just ends up costing more, rather than delivering more performance. - https://www.caranddriver.com/review...onda-cr-v-vs-bmw-m5-ford-f-150-dodge-charger/

I pasted a couple quotes from the article, below: the first quote is from the start of the article, and the second quote is from the end, with test results and commentary in between. The calculation process for 'octane detection' was new info, and thought I'd share here.

ON OCTANE:
"Raising the octane rating (also known as the anti-knock index) doesn't change the energy content of a gallon of gasoline. A higher octane rating indicates greater resistance to knock, the early combustion of the fuel-air mixture that causes cylinder pressure to spike. When higher-octane fuel is flowing through its injectors, the engine controller can take advantage of the elevated knock threshold and dial in more aggressive timing and higher boost pressures to improve performance."​

ON KNOCK:
"Your car doesn't know the octane rating of the fuel in its tank. Instead, the engine controller calculates an inferred octane with closed-loop logic that continuously advances the ignition timing until it detects knock, which occurs when a portion of the fuel-air mixture ignites before the spark-plug-initiated flame front reaches it. The further the computer can advance the timing without provoking knock, the higher the octane rating.

During knock, the flame front travels through the combustion chamber up to 10 times quicker than the normal spark-initiated flame front. Left unchecked, these pressure waves can damage the head gasket, pistons, or cylinder head. But the occasional brief knock is a useful tool for checking that the engine is operating efficiently. It's detected with one or more knock sensors bolted to the block to sense the oscillations created by the pressure waves with a typical frequency between 7 and 16 kilohertz. Stephen Russ, senior technical leader for gas engines at Ford, says this normal knock is usually detected and addressed within one or two combustion cycles and poses no threat to the engine."​
 
#37 ·
I actually tried the higher octane vs lower in 2018 (can’t remember which season , but it might’ve been spring) and used 87 vs 91 and was getting about 2mpg better with 91 over 87 ( this was in a Prius)..

Out of all the gas stations I tried (Shell, Chevron, and Costco), Costco beat out all the others (not only in price).
 
#38 · (Edited)
A quick observation, but two factors could be at play.

1) If the in car computer advanced timing, you technically could have achieved better gas mileage. Depending on how your car "trims" you can either gain efficiency through a slightly higher horsepower, or if it adjusts fuel trim down, using the same air, you could gain from use of less volume of fuel.

2) Not all 91 octane gas is ethanol free, but some is. If you were using a non-ethanol fuel, you technically have up to 10% more energy content. (Probably more like 3-5%). Also ethanol is an oxygen bearing compound, so when mixed with fuel, during combustion it actually adds oxygen to the process, requiring more fuel than an ethanol free blend to hit the same air/fuel mixture.

A terribly laid out, but informative read, link isn't secure, so enter at your own risk. I know it's probably an older article based on the plethora of MTBE additive mentions (illegal in NY, and probably many other states, I'd imagine).
 
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