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Trusting ACC and CMBS

25K views 65 replies 19 participants last post by  Mobilcams 
#1 ·
Just curious, how much do you trust Honda Sensing? Do you always keep your foot around the brake ready to take over or do you typically just let it do its thing?

I used adaptive cruise control in the parking lot of stop and go traffic called I-35 for the first time and it worked pretty well, but I just couldn't fully trust it without getting anxious. The car would sometimes speed up in scenarios I wouldn't, like when the car in front of me got a bit ahead of me but I could see ahead we were coming up on another stop. The car applied accelerator and a hard brake when I'd normally just coast and soft brake. I find that to be a disadvantage since a hard start and stop would eat more gas than a softer coast. I guess the radar and sensing only sees the car ahead of you and distance to apply formulas and doesn't take into account predictions based on other traffic ahead.

I also don't know how "quick" it is to react in traffic. Typically I can see blinkers or see that a car wants to get in the gap ahead of me and slow down before or as the driver is doing that. I felt that ACC would hit the accelerator a little too aggressive in traffic. In my above scenario since I wouldn't be accelerating too hard a car can easily slip in and it's not a big deal. However ACC would be applying accelerator which could perhaps cause the merging car to misjudge my speed. I personally find people who accelerate aggressively in heavy traffic during those momentary gaps to be annoying so I don't like being "that guy". Any workarounds to make it less aggressive? Perhaps a setting change. I guess I could always keep my top speed pretty low in traffic, though it was stop and go I had ACC set to 65 lol.
 
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#2 ·
I’m a little on the fence about auto acceleration too. I would like if it knew whether I was going up a hill? Drivers tend to slow going over hillcrests because they literally can’t see what’s on the other side. Maybe it already does; I haven’t made my daily commute too many times yet.

The braking is too aggressive, if anything. This morning, a guy was exiting the freeway, completely in the exit lane, and it still made me brake although my lane was clear. (This was on a downhill stretch.)

Lane keep is pretty amazing.

I’m not sure yet whether constant-speed cruise control is the right thing to do in all situations for this car, relative to a gas car. Feels like you’d want to accelerate more slowly to stay eco friendly and take the road more into account. Would be nice if Honda Sensing could account for that somehow.

I’m also generally still feeling everything out. I’m still surprised whenever the engine kicks in.
 
#3 ·
Been driving my car for two months now and I was nervous with using these features at first but am now more comfortable with using them. Foot is no longer hovering near the brake. I’ve of course adjusted the way I drive now. My index fingers are always near the paddles and my right thumb is set to press the interval button, increasing it in high speed and decreasing it when in slow speed or increasing or decreasing speed during ACC; all depending on the situation. I for the most part don’t use my gas and brake as often as I use to. Traffic and commute is so much less stressful IMO!
 
#4 ·
How much do you trust the Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) and Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) on the Insight? Do you use ACC and trust CMBS in congested traffic on the highway or do you manually take over in those situations? At what point do you "take over" and not trust it? Would you trust the car's automatical breaking with ACC and CMBS more than your own judgment?

My wife and I are in the middle of a 7,000+ mile trip and I generally use ACC, even when driving in heavy city traffic, such as Houston, Kansas City, St. Louis and a few other large cities on this trip. I have a brother-in-law, a civil engineer in his late 60s, that would never trust such technology. He's very skeptical of all the news regarding autonomous driving.

On this trip I have had a situation or two that scared me and I felt that I needed to manually intervene. It involved semi trucks abruptly cutting in front of me at a very close distances and my natural reaction of course was to brake manually. What would happen in such a case if I allowed the CMBS in the car to react instead of me?

Can this technology on the Insight be trusted more than my own judgment which naturally can involve emotions of panic and indecisiveness?
 
#5 ·
Always "Trust" your instincts when something like that happens. Don't forget, you're scanning way more information with your eyes and the Insight is basically ONLY scanning what's in front of you. YOU can read the situation much better than an autonomous system. I do the same but always let "My Read" of the situation override Honda Sensing when it doesn't feel right.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Agreed. These systems are good aids and workload relievers but the car can’t see everything you can. If the situation is unsafe you should always intervene.

The car can’t see anything other than the cars directly in front so if someone is getting ready to make an unsafe lane merge it will not react until the car is already in your lane which may be too late
 
#7 ·
The ACC works far better than I ever thought it would. As long as you are in traffic with other cars closer than 120 yards, it will slow and keep up to the speed you set, and even come to complete stop. To resume, all that is necessary is a tap on the gas pedal.

I have yet to let the car get into a situation to see how the CMBS works.

I have to occasionally put the brakes on sooner than the ACC will, especially if there is a hill involved. If the radar is shooting over or under the car ahead, well the car ahead isn't there as far as the ACC knows.

I have a 55mph highway that has a stop light every mile, if the cars are more than 120 yards ahead, Honda Sense will be happy to keep cruising at 55 right up to basically a CMBS situation.

The worst offense that I have for using AAC is when I am following a car, that car decides to turn left. AAC tends to go into insane brake mode, after the car ahead is out of the lane and turned left. I have figured out to have the foot near the gas pedal, and that seems to make it just go, instead of slowing.
 
#9 ·
The worst offense that I have for using AAC is when I am following a car, that car decides to turn left. AAC tends to go into insane brake mode, after the car ahead is out of the lane and turned left. I have figured out to have the foot near the gas pedal, and that seems to make it just go, instead of slowing.
Not sure if it'll help since CMBS sounds like it's working for you in all other instances with ACC, but there's also the option to change the "Forward Collision Warning Distance" to Short (vs Normal default - p379) to see if it better manages the 'departing left turn car situation.' Otherwise, the 'foot on throttle' technique sounds like it's working well for you, and probably keeps you more alert of these situations than otherwise.
 
#8 ·
I always maintain the 'active' driver role, even though it gets 'comfortable' with ACC/LKAS on. As with the other Honda Sensing features, I view them as tools 'supporting' my own driving/skills to catch things I may not notice... rather than depending on them entirely.

I have have my hands on the steering wheel when using ACC (even if the 'water bottle +LKAS' trick MIGHT work), and I view ACC as 'just' managing throttle/brake position to give my foot a rest. I'm alert/ready to brake more or accelerate more if needed, because I know what distance/speed feels comfortable to me.

I also only use ACC on relatively open highways to make my drive easier, rather than for stop/go city type traffic. Some forum members use ACC constantly, but technically Honda only states it to work in the 25-90 mph range (p492). The car manages itself on open highways the way I would do so myself, so that is where I trust its application. However, I feel the need to be more 'alert' in stop/go and city driving because more things can happen than the radar or camera can detect. I also happen to get better mpg without ACC in slower non-highway traffic, because I'm 'smarter' at factoring in terrain than the car can detect.

Overall, I only use the ACC tech in low-risk situations (open highway driving), and trust the other Honda Sensing features as "supporting notifications" to my regular driving to catch things I may not notice. Even if the Honda Sensing notifications can get glitchy (e.g. CMBS brake checks), any notifications it gives keep me active/aware/alert of my surroundings. In the end, *I'm* responsible for the risk management and insurance bill while on the road; until all cars are autonomous, no accident report nor insurance company will say 'the car was driving itself and is at fault.'
 
#10 ·
I use the low-speed-follow along with ACC. I would never 100% trust them and am always ready to take over. With respect to ACC, I find I can achieve better gas mileage without it. ACC tends to speed up more aggressively as well as brake later due to the AI not being able to anticipate like us carbon-based life forms.
 
#11 ·
You need a powerful onboard computer, lots of cameras, and radar/lidar sensors plus deep learning neural networks for autonomous driving to work. The Insight has one front camera, one radar, and probably a low power CPU running on software of unknown quality from Honda at $23k (LX) for the whole car. I consider them as driver assistance features instead of thinking it is some basic form of autonomous driving.


I like driving so I haven't used ACC much (1-2 times).
 
#12 ·
I have always used this system and iverall, it's pretty reliable. I have gone on many rants about the ACC not seeing stopped cars at lights frequently, so like most of my cohorts, use it as a tool kit as a crutch.

Respectfully to insightfully. I can understand why Honda doesn't technically advise people to use ACC at speeds below 25mph, but honestly I think this is there for liability. Let's be clear, the system is sold as a fully stop and go capable system, so the only reason they would have that warning is to caution the driver and cover their butts. I find it to be excellent overall for responsible driver's. 😋
 
#13 ·
No offense taken... it’s ‘just’ a tool/technology, after all… and we’re in an open dialog to learn!

Trying to understand/reconcile the difference though… If your experience is that ACC doesn’t see stopped cars (presumably at slowing/lower speeds while approaching stop lights), isn’t that similar to Honda’s warning (for liability or other reasons) of system inaccuracy below 25 mph? How do you think about the difference between the two?
 
#19 ·
I love ACC, primarily in stop and go traffic. The only "scary points" are when some knuckle head all of a sudden veers into your small space and ACC over reacts and suddenly stops. Other than that, I pretty much trust ACC.
LKAS on the other hand, I used to love it but now it seems to be less and less able to find the lines and stay in a lane. Also the fact that it only engages for 20 seconds and then shuts off seems more un-safe than anything. I know, I know... it is not meant to be an autopilot, it is meant for you to have both hands on the wheel and for it to "assist" you.
But I sure as **** cannot wait until full-auto pilot is ready and I am sure it is not that far off!
 
#20 ·
Lkas seems to do very well on expressways even with faded lines. On expressways I find it stays on almost non-stop without losing lane integrity in all but the most confusing areas. On small rural highways that have 2 lanes and excellent lane markings it's dubious at best. Going 45mph on well painted road without hard curves it inexplicably loses lane detection popping in and off at the weirdest moments. It's this one thing that ruins lkas for me. I love lkas otherwise, but I still can't figure out the logic of why it loses lane markings in these scenarios.
 
#21 ·
I've found the LKAS doesn't like lane openings for driveways/ intersections or roadways. It seems more heavily dependent on the right line than the left, but that's just from my experience. I've found that on a particular stretch of road with a 2-1 lane merge, if I start in the right lane, the car doesn't freak out, if I start in the left lane, it thinks I'm "departing" the lane.
 
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#26 ·
I tried ACC on a road trip but felt the braking was too severe.

Husband likes to drive with LKAS but it freaks me out. I trust the car to keep me in my lane but still don’t trust the cars next to me to stay in theirs.

I’ve also had instances where getting on the freeway and the car gets confused by the lane markings and decelerates.

Always at least one hand on the wheel even with Honda Sensing on ready.
 
#27 ·
Last weekend I went over to Danbury with my wife and remembered someone mentioning the "water bottle trick" to keep LKAS steering the car. So I tried it. It worked! It actually worked for many miles. My wife closed her eyes in fear, but I was ready to take control in a fraction of a second...but do admit to showing off a bit with passing cars when I would stretch my arms and watch the look on faces that observed the car driving itself. :grin:

Lines have to be good, and 15 oz water bottle is enough not to pull the steering too much. Left side works best for me. Doesn't like sharp turns or bad lines, but it is a cool trick. ;)

I made a couple of videos. One over 3 minutes long. Could have gone way longer.

Phil
 
#31 ·
https://twitter.com/HondaInAmerica/status/1134488455612751872
https://twitter.com/HondaInAmerica/status/1135946880179941376


Safe Swarm & Smart Intersection will probably show up in future Honda vehicles to improve upon what we currently have with Honda Sense.
It's crazy to think that technologies like this have been in r&d for ~30 years. All of the bureaucratic red tape and FCC compliance issues that had to be overcome. Realistically, this is something that could be done on a national level, with a cooperation between automotive manufacturers and government.

With a universal system, we could create "automotive trains" for highway travel. Something that would minimize congestion and maximize efficiency. Imagine getting on the freeway and your car finding the nearest semi, and "locking" in behind that semi. With other cars, autonomously. Creating a slipstream / drafting effect, adaptive cruise control on steroids. I'm sure with research we could figure out the ideal semi to passenger car ratio, and effectively reduce the necessary resources to travel. This system would be something I'd assume would be highway only, but the effective cost reduction and crash reduction could very easily pay for the investment in technology.

As I get older, I don't mind a computer driving me on the highway, just don't try to take my windy mountain roads, or rural 2 lane drives.
 
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#33 ·
Put "the water bottle trick" to long range interstate driving into PA last weekend. It worked for many miles, as long as the curves in the road weren't too sharp. Even then, I didn't trust some of the drivers passing me, so I "assisted" the LKAS just to be safe. Armrests aren't in the right locations for my arms when hands are on the wheel, so this works (when safe to do so) for an arm rest break.

I'm not sure how I feel about "autonomous driving". If it becomes "law", you loose your driving freedom...and I like my driving freedom. But even with inventions like ACC, I observe traffic slowdowns. It only takes one "slow" person to impede a whole long lane of cars. At first, you might not even notice you're going slower than you set your ACC. Now you have some freedom to break out and jump around the "blockage". But locking everyone's vehicle into a "swarm" may take all that away and take your own autonomy away. Maybe a special lane will be needed to allow independent driving! Of course that will never happen here in the USA. No "Autobahn" over here. I wish!

Convenience is nice, but not at the expense of "freedom".

Happy 4th of July!

Phil
 
#34 ·
F*ck yeah!!! America!!

I'm never going to want to give up driving permanently, but for long distance, highway only travel. I'd like to think we can take a page from the Japanese, not necessarily full autonomic driving, but the ability for the car to alert of us of slow-downs and congestion, and a reward (lower tolls) for choosing to divert.

If anything I suspect, it'd start off like an HOV lane. Because only cars with the ability to support the technology would be allowed. It'd be more of a choice. If anyone has ever driven Albany to Buffalo, I know which lane you'd want to be in. (About my initial comment for Auto-trains)

The "swarm technology" does not seem to be designed for full autonomous driving, but rather a semi-autonomous solution for one of the major "trouble" areas in our commute.
 
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#35 · (Edited)
The swarm tech seems like a driver assistance feature but instead of just relying on your car's safety sensing tech it pools in data from other nearby vehicle's safety sensing hardware to benefit everyone. It's kind of like Waze where a community of drivers reporting traffic, potholes, road closures, and cops can benefit everyone that contributes. From the video, it seems like a switch on the steering wheel needs to be activated, so I assume it's optional for those drivers that don't want to participate.


P.S. Happy 4th of July to you guys and stay safe! :grin:
 
#40 ·
Basically Drives itself on the Highway

With ACC and lane assist turned on while in the highway, the Insight may as well be self driving.

I drove an hour from Richmond to Charlottesville with both on and the car steered itself the whole way. I only steered when the “steering required” warning came up. Otherwise I just stayed attentive while the car did all the work.

Give it a try sometime. Definitely a game changer for highway driving.
 
#41 ·
With ACC and lane assist turned on while in the highway, the Insight may as well be self driving.

I drove an hour from Richmond to Charlottesville with both on and the car steered itself the whole way. I only steered when the “steering required” warning came up. Otherwise I just stayed attentive while the car did all the work.

Give it a try sometime. Definitely a game changer for highway driving.
You don't even need to steer when that warning comes up. You can ignore it and it won't disengage. :p https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/3...islikes/2420-3700-miles-so-far.html#post26676


Be careful though because the Insight will lose sight of the lane markers sometimes even when they're clearly drawn.
 
#42 ·
I'm believing more and more that the human driver is more susceptible to making bad decisions while driving caused by tech distraction, panic, emotion, perhaps screams from passengers in the car, etc. Although I agree that this technology is still in its infancy and. caution is advised, I look forward to the day when I can be in a car and not have to rely upon faulty human judgment for getting from point A to point B. It is well documented that the main causes of car accidents (and thus deaths caused by accidents) are from distracted driving, drunk driving, speeding. reckless driving, running red lights, etc. A computer cannot be distracted. It cannot get drunk. It will not speed. I will not run red lights. It doesn't panic. It doesn't base its decisions on emotions, etc.
 
#43 ·
A computer is only as good as the code running it. I write code for a living. People write code. People mess up. I am no exception. I will always fear antonymous driving. A computer cannot anticipate EVERYTHING.

Example: a deer jumps in front of your car, and it's too late to stop. Your choices are, hit the deer, hit the oncoming car or run into the fence at the side of the road. Which gets selected?

Personally, I'd hit the deer since that would be a comprehensive insurance claim and thus not chargeable. The oncoming car and fence are collision claims and may increase your insurance rate. How in the **** does someone program for that? Let's say it's a moose and not a deer. In that case, go for the fence as you have a better chance of survival. Coding is hard.
 
#47 ·
You may luck out and only have a calibration problem. 10-20 minutes and you're golden if that's the case. Based on the errors, LKAS is video, so that kind of points to the camera/windshield. Please keep us posted!
All the listed Honda Sensing issues have camera use in common. Hopefully hasarad is right that a simple camera calibration will address the listed issues Is there a reason you know of that CMBS is listed twice in the Honda Link app?:
CMBS = Radar + Camera, for speeds >3 mph
ACC/LSF = Radar + Camera, for speeds <90 mph
LKAS = Camera only, for speeds 45-90 mph
RDM = Camera only, for speeds 45-90 mph​

Have you noticed any issues with speed limit recognition? It's another one of the Sensing suite that uses camera only.
Sign Recognition = Camera only​
As mentioned on a recent video of mine the ACC worked normally with the camera frosted over by ice. I'm kind of curious to your opinion on this. You seem to have a lot of knowledge about electrical mechanical stuff. Whatcha think?
 
#48 · (Edited)
As mentioned on a recent video of mine the ACC worked normally with the camera frosted over by ice. I'm kind of curious to your opinion on this. You seem to have a lot of knowledge about electrical mechanical stuff. Whatcha think?
When I think about how Honda Sensing radar/camera components work together, this (non-Honda) video always comes to mind for me. It shows how radar and camera work individually AND when used in "fusion" together.

Separately, the radar and camera systems take in data that is "okay." Together, they provide "better" data for detection purposes.
- Cameras work well for object recognition (boundary, classification), but require certain lighting conditions
- Radar works well for range detection (distance, velocity), but not for object recognition.

Since ACC uses radar and camera, my guess is that Honda has a minimum threshold for the amount of input received from each device, and your driving condition met that - even with the camera being iced/fogged over.

Most forum reports of ACC being unavailable were when ice built up on the radar exterior surface. So it seems Honda's ACC system relies most on the radar input and less on the camera input, to remain functional. The video mentions that the "fusion" method is robust because it can tolerate missed detections from radar or camera alone.
 
#49 · (Edited)
I stated using ACC a lot recently and I noticed it runs perfectly fine with the exception of stoplight traffic. I noticed the car won’t brake automatically all the time when coming to a stop light with cars already in park at the light.

I just tested it today hoping it would brake if I got a little closer to car , but I had to hard brake as it got too close. But I noticed on other occasions when all the cars are moving ahead of me and we all slow down for the light, then it will brake.

I guess Sensing only works with moving cars.

EDIT: looks like the parked car issue was already mentioned. But that’s my biggest gripe with it and yeah I seem to get a little lower mpg using it ALOT.
 
#50 ·
ACC is a useful tool but it has it's limitations.

It can only see the car directly in front of you. It can not see what is happening ahead of that vehicle. So if the driver of that vehicle is not paying attention to slowing traffic ahead, the ACC won't react either.

These systems also don't react to stationary objects. They only react to vehicles that are moving but at a different speed. I think there is even a warning about this in the owner's manual. That limitation is not just a problem with the Honda implementation. It's an inherent limitation of the technology. Here's a video that was on the news last week of a Tesla driver who drives right into an overturned semi on the freeway while using ACC.

 
#51 ·
ACC is a useful tool but it has it's limitations.

It can only see the car directly in front of you. It can not see what is happening ahead of that vehicle. So if the driver of that vehicle is not paying attention to slowing traffic ahead, the ACC won't react either.

These systems also don't react to stationary objects. They only react to vehicles that are moving but at a different speed. I think there is even a warning about this in the owner's manual. That limitation is not just a problem with the Honda implementation. It's an inherent limitation of the technology. Here's a video that was on the news last week of a Tesla driver who drives right into an overturned semi on the freeway while using ACC.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the fact they won't react to stationary items. The Ford Fusion Energi has little to no problem on ACC when it comes to stopped cars at traffic lights or other objects in the road. This problem seems more indicative to either cheaper systems or systems with poorly written software. I have found the Honda won't see cars sitting still at lights 99% of the time and won't even set off a brake alarm if you get to close to such cars without hitting the brake. The Toyota Corolla Hybrid I test drove had the same problem except it would at least set off a brake alarm in these instances. The Ford is nearly 99% accurate when it comes to seeing and responding to stopped cars at lights while on ACC. I'd say the Tesla had a failure in recognition in the software.These systems aren't 100%. The Ford misses cars every once in a while. The Comma 2 will also add more reliable function to this braking problem in some cars (not the honda of course). It seems the entire thing has to do with the software and how the camera and the radar work together to identify proper objects in the road and react accordingly. If Ford can do it then I figure most anyone else who's willing to spend the dough can do it for their cars as well.
 
#54 ·
Some other things I’ve noticed with ACC is that the brake warning will still come up when it’s engaged , which it shouldn’t because it’s basically doing most of the accelerating and braking for you.. and the brake warning doesn’t really work with stationary objects , so no help there .

Also, the other day I had ACC set at 45mph and it went up a gradual hill and back down , but the car picked up a lot of momentum going down and it sped up to 60mph and maintained that speed for quite a while without braking to 45mph.
 
#61 ·
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