Gen 3 Insight Forum banner

21 - 37 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
A low 12V battery can be for two reasons:
1. Charge problem - need to check what voltage comes to charge in different modes.
2. The problem of discharge (increased consumption) - need to check the current consumption of the battery. Most likely with off ignition.
The AGM battery itself is unlikely to be defective from the factory. But it is clearly of small volume and if one of the above reasons happened, then problems arise in different circuits that highlight different errors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
I hooked up my new Battery Tester and the Battery seems to test good. I didn't do the CCA complete test because you need to up the idle to 1500 RPM. With these Cars I don't think you can do that unless you are driving it. Mostly the Battery said 100% charged except a couple of times it dropped down to around 70%. I just would keep the Engine running and when it stopped I would start the cycle again. Here are a couple of Photos I took during the testing. Of course today there are no warning lights or the Brakes warnings going to my Honda Link App. I think when Honda contacts me next week I may ask them to send me to a different Dealer instead of the Dealer I purchased the Car from. They already had the Car for 2 weeks and got no where. I'm not sure what the actual CCA is on these Batteries so I just guess around 405. The Battery was on a Maintenance Charger so I turned the Radio on for a while to get to an accurate Voltage. I didn't try turning the lights on to see how much that drains the charge. The issue is so intermittent that makes it more difficult to track the source. When I put it in the charge test mode, it said low but again I wasn't able to up the RPMS to 1500.
5527


5528
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
That part number gives me some more to go on. I will use the 450 CCA and see if the results are the same. I will probably take it on a drive with the Tester hooked up so I can hit the 1500 RPM for the charge test. Thanks to all of you for your input so I have more info when Honda contacts me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
Hi everyone! Bought access to Honda tech site (https://techinfo.honda.com/). One of the docs had a note on the 12 volt battery:
__
NOTE:
A 12 volt battery might be discharged under these conditions:
- Driving a vehicle 6 miles (10 km) or less per day.
- Leaving a vehicle idling with high electrical loads such as headlight, seat heaters,
wipers, rear window defogger, etc.
___
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
What hobby charger do you have?

Honda would not replace the battery due to not receiving any error messages at the time I brought the car in... I said it would die again in cold and which they responded call the number on the door window to get a tow...great thanks... They also said record the error with my phone when it happens again...thanks. I'll keep the hobby charger in my car from now on just in-case.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
This is the 2nd winter with my Insight and noticed this weekend that after switching to ACC and activating to rear window/side mirror defoggers to sweep snow off the car, I got all the error indications that my 12V battery was low. First day, I was still able to put it into drive and get it going...VSA error light remained on. After driving a full round trip of about 100 miles, which I would imagine would have fully charged the battery, the next morning it was worse. This time, I couldn't put into drive, but I had spent even less time scraping just some light snow off the front windshield.

It is winter here, maybe just 30 degrees this morning, and had no problems before using ACC mode to run the rear windshield defogger. Maybe a driver seat warmer was left on and auto-headlights (but it should have only been running DRLs).

Since I hadn't encountered this problem in previous winters I thought it was my 12V battery dying. A jump instantly got it to ON mode without any error messages.

Took it to the dealership and they checked out the battery and confirmed it was still performing within specs and not yet valid for warranty replacement.

Maybe my battery is ok now after somewhat being evaluated by the dealer...just think it is unreasonable for it to have quit while running defogger wires, DRLs, and maybe a driver seat heater on low for 10 minutes.

On the write up from the service visit, it did note "Updated PGMI, CVT, IMA motor and battery" though I had the BCM software recall update done two weeks ago. I thought it strange whether the BCM update could have caused this and why any PGMI, CVT, IMA update not have been applied during that previous visit.

I guess as long as I'm not running out in a hurry, I can test this as long as I have neighbors in the lot available to provide a jump.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
4,505 Posts
This is the 2nd winter with my Insight and noticed this weekend that after switching to ACC and activating to rear window/side mirror defoggers to sweep snow off the car, I got all the error indications that my 12V battery was low. First day, I was still able to put it into drive and get it going...VSA error light remained on. After driving a full round trip of about 100 miles, which I would imagine would have fully charged the battery, the next morning it was worse. This time, I couldn't put into drive, but I had spent even less time scraping just some light snow off the front windshield.
Did the VSA error only turn off once the car was powered back down? Were you in Accessory mode both times to defrost the car? It's interesting that the method worked last winter, and now indicates a level of battery deterioration this winter. But defrosting is a pretty high electrical load. Even remote start for a Touring, which activates the same features you had running (rear defroster, mirror heaters, seat heaters) uses full "Power On" mode to help keep the batteries charged.

On the write up from the service visit, it did note "Updated PGMI, CVT, IMA motor and battery" though I had the BCM software recall update done two weeks ago. I thought it strange whether the BCM update could have caused this and why any PGMI, CVT, IMA update not have been applied during that previous visit.
This update seems a little strange/questionable, unless it's being used as a generic name/phrase (?). The Gen1/Gen2 Insights used IMA, but the Gen3 Insight uses 'two motor' CVT instead. The PCU/DC-DC Converter recall seems more likely to affect 12V battery health, but (in theory) 2019 models like ours aren't part of that recall.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
Did the VSA error only turn off once the car was powered back down? Were you in Accessory mode both times to defrost the car?
The VSA error that persisted after the 1st day start probably did go away after shutting down and starting backup later after 50 miles of driving. At the time I thought with slippery roads, that VSA was active, but the yellow color indicates that something is wrong.

I was in accessory mode both days that the error occurred, but the first day where I was able to successfully start the car, there was a lot more snow to clear off the entire car. Maybe the seat heater wasn't on?

No sense testing it tomorrow morning for the sake of it...will be more attentive the next time I go out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
So the high voltage pack isn't used at all to power the typical 12V accessories or keep it AGM battery charged? Not gonna lie, that sounds like a kind of stupid design decision. That would mean the AGM goes through quite a few partial charge/discharge cycles given how much the gas engine starts and stops.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
4,505 Posts
So the high voltage pack isn't used at all to power the typical 12V accessories or keep it AGM battery charged? Not gonna lie, that sounds like a kind of stupid design decision. That would mean the AGM goes through quite a few partial charge/discharge cycles given how much the gas engine starts and stops.
While the car is powered on, the HV battery recharges the 12V battery via DC/DC converter (instead of alternator). When the car is powered off (or in accessory mode), the 12V battery draws down since not re-charged. Overall, I think this parallels the charging design of a conventional car with alternator (?).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
I was in accessory mode both days that the error occurred, but the first day where I was able to successfully start the car, there was a lot more snow to clear off the entire car. Maybe the seat heater wasn't on?

No sense testing it tomorrow morning for the sake of it...will be more attentive the next time I go out.
Have made a number of short drives this week and no signs of performance issues with the battery. I doubt long drives over the weekend will surface anything. Do confirm that the side panel that covers the battery is one source of plastic rattle in the winter time. I'll either mention it to the svc advisor next time or do a better DIY job than just shoving a rolled up piece of (black) paper to dampen it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
@insightfully
That sounds like the logical way it should operate, but per post #26:

"NOTE:
A 12 volt battery might be discharged under these conditions:
- Driving a vehicle 6 miles (10 km) or less per day.
- Leaving a vehicle idling with high electrical loads such as headlight, seat heaters,
wipers, rear window defogger, etc. "

makes it sound like it actually only charges when the engine is running, otherwise driving distance and idling with electrical loads should have pretty much no effect given that those conditions wouldn't allow the HV battery to be depleted (engine would start and operate in generation mode).
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
4,505 Posts
makes it sound like it actually only charges when the engine is running, otherwise driving distance and idling with electrical loads should have pretty much no effect given that those conditions wouldn't allow the HV battery to be depleted (engine would start and operate in generation mode).
Yes, you're right... based on that, it seems 12V recharging relies on 'powered on' and 'ICE running' combined conditions. Honda warns that the car may not start at all if the HV battery is drawn down too low, so the connection to charging 12V battery with ICE running seems protective of the HV battery. This is my first/only hybrid so I don't have outside context, but do other hybrids have different programming to recharge 12V battery?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Likewise, this is my first hybrid, and I have no idea what's typical (not something I ever thought about before, for that matter). I can understand having a separate battery besides the HV pack for initial accessory/ECM and engine start power, though. But that brings up yet another question: does the engine also have a conventional starter?? I didn't think so, but I doubt 12V is enough for the starter/generator in the transmission, and I also doubt it steps up the 12V via DC-DC, in which case only a conventional starter makes sense. Not that that's a bad thing. But not using the HV pack stepped down for low voltage accessories with the AGM as a buffer just seems ridiculous. After all, pretty much all the components to make it happen are already there, it's just that the circuit would need to be designed to do so. I like to think that Honda is not lacking in engineering/design chops, so there must be a good reason that it is the way it is. I just don't see it, though.
 
21 - 37 of 37 Posts
Top