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Discussion Starter #1
I enabled the feature for auto parking brake when the car is turned off which seemed to work fine. I started having issues at 800 miles where the car would spit back error messages about breaking issues (see attachments). I took to the dealer and they had no idea what caused it but it cleared itself up... They said it was probably caused by a low battery.... It's happened two more times now and the latest time I couldn't even get the car out of park. Any thoughts on what this might be or how to handle it? How many times do I take it to the dealer where they do nothing before I can take other action?

Thanks!
 

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Take it to a different dealership would be my first suggestion. (There may be a software update for the car, but seeing as all issues point to brakes, I don't think that'll help.). Low brake fluid, a partially blown fuse, low 12v charge state, bad wheel speed sensors could be the issue, or maybe a "parking brake sensor", does it only happen if you start the car with the parking brake engaged?

If you want to start a lemon law case, look up your states laws, and start documenting every time this happens to strengthen your case with your district attorneys office. Also note every time it's been to the dealership, and get a copy of your service records/receipts.
 

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Welcome to the forum! First of all, were any of these messages still showing when you took the car to the dealer? If not, the sad part is that in order for a tech to check into any of your issues, they typically need to see the warning message before looking further into the problem. Secondly, I would ask the service department if, when these messages come on, does that produce a "fault code" that the computer "brain box" of the car stores in it's memory. If so, they should be able to check into the issues. If the Insights do not have this capability, it is very sad because with all the computerized technology in these cars, they should have provided ability for storage of these codes in order to find out what is causing these error messages. This storage capability is not new. It has been around for at least a couple of decades.
 

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Welcome to the forum! First of all, were any of these messages still showing when you took the car to the dealer? If not, the sad part is that in order for a tech to check into any of your issues, they typically need to see the warning message before looking further into the problem. Secondly, I would ask the service department if, when these messages come on, does that produce a "fault code" that the computer "brain box" of the car stores in it's memory. If so, they should be able to check into the issues. If the Insights do not have this capability, it is very sad because with all the computerized technology in these cars, they should have provided ability for storage of these codes in order to find out what is causing these error messages. This storage capability is not new. It has been around for at least a couple of decades.
The codes stay stored for something like 100 key cycles. Both times I brought mine in, they pulled codes, even though the warnings had cleared themselves.

I'm willing to bet at the very least, they cleared the codes when you brought them in, which is why I document every warning I see on the car. Also with some warnings, if you look at the radio display, in the upper right hand corner there will be a little symbol in one of the tabs, if you click that, (it's a shortcut), it'll bring you to a slightly more detailed explanation of the warnings.
 

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The sample error messages look like overall brake system messages, separate from the automatic parking brake... but your thread makes a relationship between the two.

There is a brief blurb (OM p533) that mentions the parking brake cannot be released automatically if the 3 messages you showed are active. BUT it doesn't mention affecting manual parking brake operation.

To check if there's a relationship between the error messages and the automatic parking brake, you could deactivate the automatic parking brake by repeating the steps - if not already done (attached) -? Things to note after deactivated:
- Do the error messages go away after deactivating the automatic parking brake feature?
- Are there any errors when manually activating the parking brake?
- Do the error messages stay on while driving, or only in Park?

Tire/wheel condition also affect VSA and ABS, since those systems are the 'indirect monitoring' part of TPMS.
- Are you seeing any TPMS messages, or have any new pressure/condition difference in your tires?
- Does temporarily turning off the VSA help to pinpoint or eliminate it from the mix of errors? - it turns back on each time the car is on (attached)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Break errors when disengaging parking brake

I've been having an issue ever since I enabled the automatic parking brake feature. Occasionally when I start the car when the parking brake is engaged, the brake peddle will push back hard and start throwing a bunch of errors. (see attachments). The problem usually goes away on it's own after a period of time but today was different. Today I couldn't even get the car into gear. I restarted, engaged/disengaged the brake, etc. to no avail.

Does anyone have any idea what would cause this? I took it to the dealer and they said it may have been caused by low battery which seems strange since the engine never turned on while I was starting/restarting and it eventually went away. Once the errors stopped, the brake pressure went back to normal.

Thanks!
 

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I've been having an issue ever since I enabled the automatic parking brake feature. Occasionally when I start the car when the parking brake is engaged, the brake peddle will push back hard and start throwing a bunch of errors. (see attachments). The problem usually goes away on it's own after a period of time but today was different. Today I couldn't even get the car into gear. I restarted, engaged/disengaged the brake, etc. to no avail.

Does anyone have any idea what would cause this? I took it to the dealer and they said it may have been caused by low battery which seems strange since the engine never turned on while I was starting/restarting and it eventually went away. Once the errors stopped, the brake pressure went back to normal.

Thanks!
So the brake pedal actually pushed back against your foot? I've had it "fall" to the floor a few times, usually followed by a "low brake fluid" message. I've checked the fluid level, and it was full, and it happens very rarely.

The only logical thing that doesn't point to a computer/sensor failure, would be air in a brake line. I know there is a system update for the car's computer, that may fix your issue, but it seems like the particular dealership you've been going to, isn't actually interested in fixing it. As previously suggested, I would make an appointment with another dealership, it's still a warranty repair and shouldn't cost you anything.

From a self-diagnoses standpoint, I would recommend turning off the "auto parking brake" and see if the issue still occurs when you manually set it. I personally have never used the auto feature.
 

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Likely not related, but I received an error similar to your third image via the Hondalink app. I didn't notice an error on the dash, but the time roughly corresponded to a hard emergency brake. I had to jam on the brakes to the point of tires screeching to avoid someone who randomly stopped on a 4-lane highway to do an illegal u-turn across double yellow lines:-( Couple cars behind me had to stop similarly but thankfully no one crashed. This error seems to be the only result and it eventually cleared from the app.
 

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VSA and stability assist would normally point to a faulty wheel sensor. I don't see how this can be related to the parking brake. That's either on or off. Try another dealer. Remember, Honda gets five tries before lemon law kicks in.
 

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VSA and stability assist would normally point to a faulty wheel sensor. I don't see how this can be related to the parking brake. That's either on or off. Try another dealer. Remember, Honda gets five tries before lemon law kicks in.
That depends on the state (as to when lemon law applies).

And I agree that systematically VSA would normally apply to a wheel speed sensor, the question is why does the parking brake being applied automatically seem to trigger this response. WSS should be reading 0 when applied, maybe one or more is reading above 0 (mph, because I don't know if it's measured in hz or amps etc...)
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Thank you for your responses. The behavior seems quite strange and happened for the first time 1 day after I engaged the auto parking brake. Never had the issue with it turned off.

Here is what the dealer wrote up from my previous visit. I have another scheduled for Saturday.
"C/S that had the following message on screen this morning "brake system problem. Brake performance may be reduced. see your dealer. HS the icon for the circle with brake under it. Check and advise"

"Inspected vehicle. Brake system problem light is not on at this time. Performed all DTC check. Has stored DTC u3003-16 for electric parking brake control unit power source circuit low voltage and u3006-16 for power source failure for ECU. Cleared DTCS and followed diagnostic troubleshooting. After clearing, DTCS did not return. Charged and tested 12v battery with GR8 tester. Battery tested good. Code 2P01t-4HXPB. Also performed battery hard reset. Test drove vehicle. Lights are not on at this time. Intermittent issue may have been from slightly discharged battery."

Not sure if the codes give any insight (pun, sorry) but you guys seem to know more than the dealership!

The sample error messages look like overall brake system messages, separate from the automatic parking brake... but your thread makes a relationship between the two.

There is a brief blurb (OM p533) that mentions the parking brake cannot be released automatically if the 3 messages you showed are active. BUT it doesn't mention affecting manual parking brake operation.

To check if there's a relationship between the error messages and the automatic parking brake, you could deactivate the automatic parking brake by repeating the steps - if not already done (attached) -? Things to note after deactivated:
- Do the error messages go away after deactivating the automatic parking brake feature?
- Are there any errors when manually activating the parking brake?
- Do the error messages stay on while driving, or only in Park?

Tire/wheel condition also affect VSA and ABS, since those systems are the 'indirect monitoring' part of TPMS.
- Are you seeing any TPMS messages, or have any new pressure/condition difference in your tires?
- Does temporarily turning off the VSA help to pinpoint or eliminate it from the mix of errors? - it turns back on each time the car is on (attached)
No errors when deactivating the auto parking brake feature. Parking brake seems to function normally. Today the errors went away after restarting the car; however, in the past, I've driven for 15 minutes before they went away.

No TPMS messages and I check the pressure every 2 weeks and it's been stable. I'll try the VSA next time it happens. Until they fix it, I'm leaving the auto parking brake feature on so I can track the error codes.


Side note. I'm glad I finally started posting on this forum. I've been a lurker for a while now. You guys have been great help!
 

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Likely not related, but I received an error similar to your third image via the Hondalink app. I didn't notice an error on the dash, but the time roughly corresponded to a hard emergency brake. I had to jam on the brakes to the point of tires screeching to avoid someone who randomly stopped on a 4-lane highway to do an illegal u-turn across double yellow lines:-( Couple cars behind me had to stop similarly but thankfully no one crashed. This error seems to be the only result and it eventually cleared from the app.
Surprising that HondaLink would notify you before the car alerts. Maybe its associated with proactive detection for HondaLink "automatic emergency response system" on your Touring model -?
 

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Surprising that HondaLink would notify you before the car alerts. Maybe its associated with proactive detection for HondaLink "automatic emergency response system" on your Touring model -?
More likely is the "owner freaked out by idiot driver in front and didn't notice dash warning before turning off car." ;-)

Usually I'd notice something like that, but still seems more probable.
 

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"Inspected vehicle. Brake system problem light is not on at this time. Performed all DTC check. Has stored DTC u3003-16 for electric parking brake control unit power source circuit low voltage and u3006-16 for power source failure for ECU. Cleared DTCS and followed diagnostic troubleshooting. After clearing, DTCS did not return. Charged and tested 12v battery with GR8 tester. Battery tested good. Code 2P01t-4HXPB. Also performed battery hard reset. Test drove vehicle. Lights are not on at this time. Intermittent issue may have been from slightly discharged battery."
I couldn't find any Gen3 Insight-specific DTC "decoders" but came across some info for other makes and models. Not sure if any of these are standard between manufacturers or applies to Honda, but sharing as a shot in dark - ?

Ford mentions U3003:16 will throw an ABS alert, while it affects different things on Mazda.
U3003:16 = Battery Voltage: Circuit Voltage Below Threshold
Ford: voltage supplied to the ABS module falls below 10 volts - https://www.dtcdecode.com/Ford/U3003-16
Mazda: vehicle control module power supply voltage is 9 V or less during engine start - DTC U3003:16, U3003:17 [VEHICLE CONTROL MODULE (V/C-MODULE)]

There's an NHTSA bulletin for the current gen CR-V, warning that brake pedal "kick-back" is known to happen when the (12V) battery charge is low. This sounded like what you described earlier. Battery test is recommended for troubleshooting. The service recap says your battery tested 'good' but I'm wondering if this continues, you ask for a new 12V battery - ?

Came up empty on 2P01T-4HXPB. Most Honda codes published online start with letters (P or U) rather than a number.
 

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@Cloaked - just curious, but how long have you owned your Insight, compared to the date of manufacture listed on the driver's door frame label?

There were a couple other threads where Insight had been on lot for a while, but the 12V AGM battery was replaced by dealer once sold. The car's fluids might also have been exposed to heat/cold extremes, which can also affect battery life.

https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/121-2019-honda-insight-pricing-dealers-purchasing-ordering/2784-buying-insight-thats-been-sitting-6-months-2.html
https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/153-2019-powertrain-technical-discussion/2782-1245-miles-maintenance-required-soon-light-oil-15%-2.html
 

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Discussion Starter #16
@Cloaked - just curious, but how long have you owned your Insight, compared to the date of manufacture listed on the driver's door frame label?

There were a couple other threads where Insight had been on lot for a while, but the 12V AGM battery was replaced by dealer once sold. The car's fluids might also have been exposed to heat/cold extremes, which can also affect battery life.

https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/121-2019-honda-insight-pricing-dealers-purchasing-ordering/2784-buying-insight-thats-been-sitting-6-months-2.html
https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/153-2019-powertrain-technical-discussion/2782-1245-miles-maintenance-required-soon-light-oil-15%-2.html
Interesting. I bought mine on 7/27/19. It had been on the lot for ~150 days in Wisconsin so... yeah there have been some extreme temps. I'll bring that up when I see the mechanic.
 

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Thank you for your responses. The behavior seems quite strange and happened for the first time 1 day after I engaged the auto parking brake. Never had the issue with it turned off.

Here is what the dealer wrote up from my previous visit. I have another scheduled for Saturday.
"C/S that had the following message on screen this morning "brake system problem. Brake performance may be reduced. see your dealer. HS the icon for the circle with brake under it. Check and advise"

"Inspected vehicle. Brake system problem light is not on at this time. Performed all DTC check. Has stored DTC u3003-16 for electric parking brake control unit power source circuit low voltage and u3006-16 for power source failure for ECU. Cleared DTCS and followed diagnostic troubleshooting. After clearing, DTCS did not return. Charged and tested 12v battery with GR8 tester. Battery tested good. Code 2P01t-4HXPB. Also performed battery hard reset. Test drove vehicle. Lights are not on at this time. Intermittent issue may have been from slightly discharged battery."

Not sure if the codes give any insight (pun, sorry) but you guys seem to know more than the dealership!
Ok, now something to work with. If you have access to a dmm (digital multi meter), next time it happens, check the voltage of the battery and write it down. (yes it's a pita because the battery is in the center console, you can try using the jump start points under the hood if it's easier. (It'll be slightly less accurate, but should be good enough).

Also do you drive the car every day? Just asking. If you do, do you have anything plugged into the 12v port? Does it shut off when the car does? I know the USB ports shut off when the car shuts off.

If you don't drive the car every day, make a note of how long the car sat before between starts.
 

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Just an update.

I dropped off my car at the dealership on 9/7. They said it was in fact a bad 12v battery and ordered a new one. After many delays it's coming in on 9/17. Hopefully it fixes the problem.

Side note, I complained to management about all the issues I've had with them and how long it took to get a battery in, so they threw in a free engine block heater :D
 

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I dropped off my car at the dealership on 9/7. They said it was in fact a bad 12v battery and ordered a new one. After many delays it's coming in on 9/17. Hopefully it fixes the problem.

Side note, I complained to management about all the issues I've had with them and how long it took to get a battery in, so they threw in a free engine block heater :D
Hmm... another report of bad 12V battery. I'm starting to see a trend in issues (or shotgun troubleshooting). Only time will tell on this, I guess.

Is your dealer throwing in the engine block heater part ($50) along with installation ($200)? That'd be a pretty good deal, if so.
 

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Hmm... another report of bad 12V battery. I'm starting to see a trend in issues (or shotgun troubleshooting). Only time will tell on this, I guess.

Is your dealer throwing in the engine block heater part ($50) along with installation ($200)? That'd be a pretty good deal, if so.
Seems like the Insight's onboard computer will misbehave if the AGM battery goes bad. Considering the Insight's computer systems are always on in standby not surprised the AGM battery's life got shorted for sitting on the dealership lot that long.
 
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