Gen 3 Insight Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
143 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
As some of you may have noticed with the Insight, the brake warning will trigger when there is no car in front of you (my guess is the system is sensing vehicle in next lane, which is when it usually mis-triggers)..

My question is: is there any way to fix or fine tune the system to be more accurate or is this just inherent in this kind of system?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,322 Posts
The Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) relies on both the radar and camera. CMBS has the most limitations listed compared to other Honda Sensing options, and most of the limitations related to the camera (p487 - shadows, contrast, lighting, reflections). - https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/10920-post10.html

Curved roads and hills also affect the detection range, as in cars exiting highway where the camera/radar still 'see' the exiting car in range and start braking. - https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/258-2019-honda-insight-features-equipment/2390-cruise-control-cars-exiting-off-ramps.html#post14108

If you think there's something off with the radar and camera, you could ask dealer to check calibration on both. But I don't think they'll just check it without another indication/symptom (i.e. multiple Sensing systems don't work, or you're getting alarms/alerts for non-functionality).

Short of recalibrating the camera, there's an option to adjust the detection distance at which the CMBS alert occurs. Default setting is 'normal' (~1.5 sec to stop); adjusting to 'short' (~1.1 sec to stop) might reduce some of the false positive alerts... but would also mean that any stops triggered by the car will be very sudden/abrupt and/or less effective distance to stop and avoid collision.
 

Attachments

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,339 Posts
I decided to test if I could deal with "normal" again a few weeks ago and had to swap back to "short" after one drive.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,067 Posts
Along those lines, I've had my lane departure warning turned off for almost a year now. Now THAT was annoying on country roads (where I tend to hug the lines on turns).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
836 Posts
Does it seem to happen in a particular section of your commute, or around a certain time of day? I've only experienced one "fluke" brake warning, but when the sun is lower in the sky and more shadows are cast, I get told that I'm leaving my lane quite frequently. I understand this limitation and come to expect it.

It is quite possible that your radar or camera is out of calibration. If you have a way to record it, and a buddy. Have them drive in front of you (on both sides) and apply their brakes. It would at least be a way to show that your CMBS system is "aimed" more so to one side than the other. From experience it should be your left side. Due to this, I now prefer to drive in the right lane on roads with a turn lane, especially when using ACC.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
143 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I’ve had my lane departure thingy turned off for about 2 weeks now.. not sure if I’m ever turning it back on ..

The brake warning mis-trigger happens at least twice a day ( I drive a lot though ).. it happens when a car comes up in another lane and there’s no car immediately in front of me..

Honestly since my car is a few weeks off of dealer lot, I’m beginning to think it is an inherent problem in the system.. these Insights go through QC and perhaps Honda was OK with a low occurrence mistrigger because they didnt have everything perfected (and possibly couldn’t perfect it)..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
I’ve had my lane departure thingy turned off for about 2 weeks now.. not sure if I’m ever turning it back on ..

The brake warning mis-trigger happens at least twice a day ( I drive a lot though ).. it happens when a car comes up in another lane and there’s no car immediately in front of me..

Honestly since my car is a few weeks off of dealer lot, I’m beginning to think it is an inherent problem in the system.. these Insights go through QC and perhaps Honda was OK with a low occurrence mistrigger because they didnt have everything perfected (and possibly couldn’t perfect it)..
It appears that the insight and other Hondas (looks like the Chrysler's have a lot of trouble too) do have inherent problems. Not sure if it's the software design or the hardware but it definitely exists. Ford has the braking and acc down pat, but their lane departure, is very oddly designed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
143 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
For me, since it is a very low occurrence, it doesn’t bother me that much..but when it comes to safety, we want our technology to be perfect..perhaps a software update from Honda in the future..

In my first few weeks with this car, there are so many things I want to tweet and hack..if the car sticks around (which I hope it does with this redesign), hopefully there will be people doing such..

To answer the question of when the brake alert mis-trigger happens, Im thinking back on all the times it’s happened and it’s been mostly at night..
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,322 Posts
To answer the question of when the brake alert mis-trigger happens, Im thinking back on all the times it’s happened and it’s been mostly at night..
Unfortunately, this scenario sounds characteristic of the camera/lighting limitations noted for the camera, and consistent with AAA's recent tests that showed no safety system (Chevy, Honda, Tesla, Toyota) could consistently detect or react to pedestrians (and presumably other shapes?) at night. - https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/521-general-automotive/3474-aaa-testing-pedestrian-detection-systems.html

If the system is already poor at night and other scenarios, making it more braking-sensitive would result in more false positives. It's the kind of catch-22 that engineers will grapple with until radar/camera technology limits and programming algorithms improve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
For me, since it is a very low occurrence, it doesn’t bother me that much..but when it comes to safety, we want our technology to be perfect..perhaps a software update from Honda in the future..

In my first few weeks with this car, there are so many things I want to tweet and hack..if the car sticks around (which I hope it does with this redesign), hopefully there will be people doing such..

To answer the question of when the brake alert mis-trigger happens, Im thinking back on all the times it’s happened and it’s been mostly at night..
For me I'm going to agree with insightfully on the limitations of these systems. Especially at night. As he said there have been a lot of research on these things and I think it's just going to take time for these systems to continue to improve. This especially goes for the price performance ratio.

As for updates? I'm thinking this is generally going to be a no. The more I deal with Honda, and I have had at least one long talk with Honda corporation concerning this, the more its impressed upon me that Honda wont be doing much updating on these systems in current models, rather, they will probably be releasing overall updates with each model year of car. I think the cost of these updates may be more prohibitive than we know, and the feasability even less possible than we previously thought possible. After talking with Adam (my current stereo and upgrade guru), even tweaks which seem simple in idea, are actually not only expensive to partake, but are, many times, impossible to do because of technical limitations in the car. As a simple example, many items in the car, which I thought were just simple buttons, are actually more like data lines to various computers in the car. What I thought was merely a simple redirecting of electricity, is actually a button controlled by data pulses and powered (literally) by computer commands. This makes something that looks rather inocuous to change, in reality, a overly complex clusterf**k. I really think a lot of the problems we think are easy to solve are actually very expensive, and quite honestly, just not worth Honda's time, expense, or may just not be possible to fix without a massive redesign or replacement of some system elements. Holy moly! That entire paragraph was a mouthful!🤔
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,322 Posts
As for updates? I'm thinking this is generally going to be a no. The more I deal with Honda, and I have had at least one long talk with Honda corporation concerning this, the more its impressed upon me that Honda wont be doing much updating on these systems in current models, rather, they will probably be releasing overall updates with each model year of car. I think the cost of these updates may be more prohibitive than we know, and the feasability even less possible than we previously thought possible.
Honda's "planned obsolescence" approach has definitely been my experience so far. They'd prefer you to buy the new model, rather than give you upgrades to the old model. This kind of works for physical accessories and changes, but doesn't translate well to safety-related technology features.

Some manufacturers like Toyota seem more benevolent, with the recent example of offering CarPlay as a retrofit to 2018 Camrys and 2018 Siennas for a fee. It's not free, but at least it's available/offered...
https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/129-2019-honda-insight-versus-competition/3328-edmunds-2020-insight-vs-2020-corolla-hybrid-9-11-19-a.html

The one hope I hold out is that there might be benefit to Honda to keep their safety systems as consistent and updated as possible. If they realize that maintaining/troubleshooting a single system design is easier (and safer) than separate manuals/guides for each generation of Honda Sensing, maybe updates to prior models can happen!

But I'm not holding my breath...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
249 Posts
For me I'm going to agree with insightfully on the limitations of these systems. Especially at night. As he said there have been a lot of research on these things and I think it's just going to take time for these systems to continue to improve. This especially goes for the price performance ratio.

As for updates? I'm thinking this is generally going to be a no. The more I deal with Honda, and I have had at least one long talk with Honda corporation concerning this, the more its impressed upon me that Honda wont be doing much updating on these systems in current models, rather, they will probably be releasing overall updates with each model year of car. I think the cost of these updates may be more prohibitive than we know, and the feasability even less possible than we previously thought possible. After talking with Adam (my current stereo and upgrade guru), even tweaks which seem simple in idea, are actually not only expensive to partake, but are, many times, impossible to do because of technical limitations in the car. As a simple example, many items in the car, which I thought were just simple buttons, are actually more like data lines to various computers in the car. What I thought was merely a simple redirecting of electricity, is actually a button controlled by data pulses and powered (literally) by computer commands. This makes something that looks rather inocuous to change, in reality, a overly complex clusterf**k. I really think a lot of the problems we think are easy to solve are actually very expensive, and quite honestly, just not worth Honda's time, expense, or may just not be possible to fix without a massive redesign or replacement of some system elements. Holy moly! That entire paragraph was a mouthful!🤔
Can anyone else hear Verier's actual voice (with the sarcasm)?? Lol!! You crack me up.. Keep posting the videos.. You are right.. There are several systems in all new cars - and it's scary.. Even older cars have several systems in them. There are high speed data bus lines on our cars, and low speed data bus lines. Our cars have two master brake cylinders, a strange little 12 volt battery - and finicky sensors that do not always work correctly.. Hope it holds together for 10 years lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
836 Posts
I'm sure that this depends highly on whether the updates are software or hardware based. Honda would be smart to offer an upgrade for a nominal fee if it's software based. They may take some flack for a fee, but they could roll it into their premium Honda software offerings, much like a subscription. I know I don't use the Honda app, or pay for it, but if it included regular updates, even if a early access basis, it would make the app worth taking a second look at.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,322 Posts
Just wait until someone crashes and blames the brake warning..(someone had to bring it up, I guess it shall be me..)
Honda makes CYA statements in manual to fall back on and prevent legal action, whether the brake alert is real or false-positive:
"The CMBS is designed to reduce the severity of an unavoidable collision. It does not prevent a collision nor stop the vehicle automatically. It is still your responsibility to operate the brake pedal and steering wheel appropriately according to the driving conditions."
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
143 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
If Honda is able to perfect this technology in future models, I think the software and/or hardware (if necessary) updates should be available for free.

We can imagine someone getting into an accident from this mis-trigger.

From a legal standpoint, Honda is off the hook but from a public relations and reputation standpoint, it could mean a disaster.

I don’t know why, but i have this feeling that Honda almost rushed production of the 3rd gen Insight without perfecting this safety technology (which I suspect they weren’t able to perfect at time of production).

Maybe I’m just too much of a perfectionist that I wanted it to be perfect.


One of the reasons why I switched from PC to Mac (but that’s a different story).
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,322 Posts
I don’t know why, but i have this feeling that Honda almost rushed production of the 3rd gen Insight without perfecting this safety technology (which I suspect they weren’t able to perfect at time of production).
There may be a nugget of truth to the concept of rushing. Honda Sensing came standard on the 2019 Insight, and became standard on the 2019 Civic (same platform). But I have the impression that Honda believes this version of Sensing is the best they can deliver, since it's now included as a standard feature on their #1 selling model / Civic.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,339 Posts
The safety technology in the Insight is shared with other Hondas that came before it. Honda Sense used to be exclusive to the highest trim when it was first introduced a few years ago. Some automakers still require you to buy a top trim level to get similar safety features. It will be a standard for all cars sold starting 2022. Honda Sense is just off the shelf safety tech from BOSCH as a stopgap measure. Honda partnered with Cruise for autonomous cars so I doubt they will invest more money into driver assist tech.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top