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Discussion Starter #1
On Friday, leaving work, our Insight had it's second "freak-out". Got in, started the car, and was greeted with 4 "warnings". RDM failure, LKAS failure, Auto headlight failure, Auto Highbeam Failure. This time I was smart and broke out the iPhone camera. Mainly so that you guys can see what happens if the car freaks out. I also took video, to show some things a picture can't show. I'll add the videos later.

What I'd like to let everyone know, is that these momentary issues do generally correct themselves on the subsequent start. (I generally drive for 10-15 minutes. Then shut the car off for ~10 minutes). On the following restart the issues have "corrected" themselves.

Album of Pictures

Interestingly, I also discovered that the errors extend beyond the DII and interior. They actually affect the functionality of the headlights, and disable DRL operation completely.
 

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I wonder if the Insight is using the QNX embedded operating system? This is a pretty rugged and dependable system so I would be suspicious if the problem "corrects" itself on a restart. Multiple failures would indicate to me some common problem such as a loose plug or bad ground somewhere that is changed once the car is restarted and shakes around a bit. Is it always the same set of errors that you see? The software could be fooled by a bad connection leading to multiple out of range readings. If you are seeing this with different failures that I would tend to suspect something on the main computer board corrupting the incoming signals as the common element, but if the same set of failures are popping up then I would suspect something common to those particular signals not on the main circuit board.
 

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I wonder if the Insight is using the QNX embedded operating system? This is a pretty rugged and dependable system so I would be suspicious if the problem "corrects" itself on a restart. Multiple failures would indicate to me some common problem such as a loose plug or bad ground somewhere that is changed once the car is restarted and shakes around a bit. Is it always the same set of errors that you see? The software could be fooled by a bad connection leading to multiple out of range readings. If you are seeing this with different failures that I would tend to suspect something on the main computer board corrupting the incoming signals as the common element, but if the same set of failures are popping up then I would suspect something common to those particular signals not on the main circuit board.
It's happened twice over 4800 miles. Both similar situations, which leads me to believe there is an issue with the BCM and/or wiring going to the BCM.

The issue that I do have is the different systems that are affected.
DRL fail completely (NO illumination, even when selected on stalk). (Stalk)(headlight assemblies)(BCM)
Turn signal indicators fail to display, no "clicking" sound. (DII)(BCM)
HighBeams fail completely. (Stalk?)(Headlight assemblies)(BCM)
Road departure mitigation fails (Camera)(BCM)
LKAS fails (Camera)(BCM)
Auto high beams, and auto lighting fail (sensor on dash).(BCM)
Brake maintenance indicator. (ABS, Brakes, BCM, PCM etc...)

I'm curious to see if the dealership decides to replace any of the affected components, the bcm, or put us up in a loaner until they can diagnose.

The worst thing is that because this issue self corrects, it doesn't store any relevant data. Last dealership visit, they "reset" the BCM. It's been ~2 months since the last time it happened.
 

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Wow, what a set of (unfortunate) pictures. I was wondering if temperature might have been at play, but your dash display shows 'only' 78F. In terms of working thru and/or working past these issues if they happen:

Q1 - What steps do you take when you see all of those messages? Do you shut it down, then re-start it to drive the 10-15 minutes? Or does the car still start immediately after getting all those messages?

Q2 - Are you able to override any of the features (e.g. use manual headlights vs auto-headlights) or does everything get disabled once those messages appear?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Wow, what a set of (unfortunate) pictures. I was wondering if temperature might have been at play, but your dash display shows 'only' 78F. In terms of working thru and/or working past these issues if they happen:

Q1 - What steps do you take when you see all of those messages? Do you shut it down, then re-start it to drive the 10-15 minutes? Or does the car still start immediately after getting all those messages?

Q2 - Are you able to override any of the features (e.g. use manual headlights vs auto-headlights) or does everything get disabled once those messages appear?
Car was parked in the shade this time, last time was first thing in the morning, so no direct sunlight on the camera. I have no issues with my camera any other time. (Yesterday at the convention center, the car registered 107*, and no issues at all).

A1- It happens during the turn-on process. Immediately shutting down and restarting does nothing. The car drives and mostly functions as it should (basically if it were a 1st gen insight). No "Honda safety features". I have to drive the vehicle for 10-15 minutes. Then shut it down and wait to restart. (assuming so the software actually goes through checking sensors, etc... then cool down for the sensors to reset.)

A2- Normal headlights work with manual controls, turn signals work (the actual lights) just no display on DII. Day time running lights and High Beams do not function at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Could it be attributed to an overheated camera if parked outside?
The car wasn't even warm. didn't turn the ac on at all that trip. It was in the shade.
 

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I have to drive the vehicle for 10-15 minutes. Then shut it down and wait to restart. (assuming so the software actually goes through checking sensors, etc... then cool down for the sensors to reset.)
In the 10-15 minutes of drive time, have you noticed whether EV engages at all? You mentioned it driving like a Gen1 Insight without Sensing... to clarify, does this mean the car still will drive as a hybrid, varying between EV/ICE when these error messages occur?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
In the 10-15 minutes of drive time, have you noticed whether EV engages at all? You mentioned it driving like a Gen1 Insight without Sensing... to clarify, does this mean the car still will drive as a hybrid, varying between EV/ICE?
Yes, drivetrain seems to be unaffected. IIRC paddles still operate normally as well.
 

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Electrical issues are so hard to diagnose on modern day cars due to so many sensors controlling different parts of the car. When did it happen during your first time experiencing this? I would bring it back to the dealership so they can forward this issue to Honda and have a record on file that this happened to you again.
 

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Electrical issues are so hard to diagnose on modern day cars due to so many sensors controlling different parts of the car. When did it happen during your first time experiencing this? I would bring it back to the dealership so they can forward this issue to Honda and have a record on file that this happened to you again.
It went in for the first time as well. The fact that it repeated, allowed me the opportunity to document the error while it was happening.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
First issue was march, a week or two after taking ownership. It's been posted about under the "complaints" thread. Dealer reset bcm, cleared codes. Hasn't happened again since, until this past Friday.
 

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The issue that I do have is the different systems that are affected.
DRL fail completely (NO illumination, even when selected on stalk). (Stalk)(headlight assemblies)(BCM)
Turn signal indicators fail to display, no "clicking" sound. (DII)(BCM)
HighBeams fail completely. (Stalk?)(Headlight assemblies)(BCM)
Road departure mitigation fails (Camera)(BCM)
LKAS fails (Camera)(BCM)
Auto high beams, and auto lighting fail (sensor on dash).(BCM)
Brake maintenance indicator. (ABS, Brakes, BCM, PCM etc...)
To your point, these all likely connected thru the BCM... but since a few are interrelated, I'm also wondering if one factor is the true "root cause" and the others appear as symptoms because their programming is linked to each other (?):
- LKAS, RDM, Turn Signals & Brakes: RDM and LKAS get suspended when the turn signals or brakes are used
- DRL & Brakes: DRL turns on only when parking brake is deactivated, and parking brake doesn't release if Brake System Indicator or ABS Indicator are on
- LKAS, RDM & Auto-High Beam: all use camera input, as you mentioned - any scratches/nicks noticed in camera's field of vision?

Brake system seems like a potential common theme between LKAS, RDM, Turn Signals and DRL operation. High Beam relation, not so sure...
 

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Discussion Starter #15
To your point, these all likely connected thru the BCM... but since a few are interrelated, I'm also wondering if one factor is the true "root cause" and the others appear as symptoms because their programming is linked to each other (?):
- LKAS, RDM, Turn Signals & Brakes: RDM and LKAS get suspended when the turn signals or brakes are used
- DRL & Brakes: DRL turns on only when parking brake is deactivated, and parking brake doesn't release if Brake System Indicator or ABS Indicator are on
- LKAS, RDM & Auto-High Beam: all use camera input, as you mentioned - any scratches/nicks noticed in camera's field of vision?

Brake system seems like a potential common theme between LKAS, RDM, Turn Signals and DRL operation. High Beam relation, not so sure...
The camera area was clear of any obstruction.

As to the comment about the daytime running lights, the car in exactly the same gear and parking brake application, did illuminate after the errors cleared, when the vehicle restarted. Also even when placed in park and the parking brake applied after driving, they do stay illuminated, even when stalk is manually moved to off. (I'm the DRL expert, due to my proclivity for drive ins).

One difference from the first time vs this time is that the back-up camera was functional this time. I only have one right turn between the shops, I didn't notice if the right mirror camera was functioning.

By process of elimination, I either have a camera issue or bcm issue. I hadn't even realized the auto high-beam functionality of the center mounted camera, but it would make sense that I was having lighting issues, beyond what the "warning" told me.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Also the parking brake did in fact release when the Brake Service Light was illuminated. I always engage it when parked.

I know for a fact that when you manually adjust the headlight stalk, it sends a signal to the BCM, it's not directly wired to any lights. So lets pose this hypothesis.

A connection issue, or software issue with the camera sensor. It gets stuck in an open loop, or loses communication with the BCM. Since the camera is tied in with RDM, LKAS, and the headlights through auto-high beam, this makes sense of why the daytime running lights and high beams, didn't work.

Since the lighting is all tied into the BCM, and since DRL aren't federally mandated, there probably isn't a back-up for DRL setting on the stalk. The headlights and turn signals are most likely designed to be capable of activating their respective lights due to federal mandates, even in the event of a BCM failure, and Honda knows that if there is an issue with federally mandated safety equipment, that means recalls.

Since LKAS and RDM, have some ties to stability control, that could explain the brake system illumination.

Just trying to work the problem backwards.

The fact that the back-up camera failed the first time and not the second could point to a slightly different issue than the first time, or that the BCM didn't seem to get as confused as the first time. Who knows, maybe the dealership reinstalled the software from the first recall, and now the back-up camera has a backup in the software.

Also I know for a fact that the "clicking noise" from the turn signal is a function of the BCM in most cars.

So by basic logic, the issue is either the camera module, or the bcm, or their respective wiring. If the camera module isn't the culprit, the BCM is tied into literally EVERYTHING, oh boy!
 

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By process of elimination, I either have a camera issue or bcm issue. I hadn't even realized the auto high-beam functionality of the center mounted camera, but it would make sense that I was having lighting issues, beyond what the "warning" told me.
Hmm... so maybe we've come full circle back to your BCM theory then. CMBS (and ACC/LSF) also use the camera, though in combination with the radar. It seems like they would have thrown alerts as well, if camera was the issue (?).

Did you notice while driving if the Traffic Sign recognition worked? That's the other system that solely relies on camera. I don't see it in your pictures, but you probably weren't driving by speed limit signs when you took those.

CMBS = Radar + Camera, starting at speeds >3 mph
ACC/LSF = Radar + Camera, for speeds up to 90 mph
LKAS = Camera only, for speeds 45-90 mph
RDM = Camera only, for speeds 45-90 mph
Sign Recognition = Camera only
Auto High Beam = Camera + Light Sensor​
 

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Hmm... so maybe we've come full circle back to your BCM theory then. CMBS (and ACC/LSF) also use the camera, though in combination with the radar. It seems like they would have thrown alerts as well, if camera was the issue (?).

Did you notice while driving if the Traffic Sign recognition worked? That's the other system that solely relies on camera. I don't see it in your pictures, but you probably weren't driving by speed limit signs when you took those.

CMBS = Radar + Camera, starting at speeds >3 mph
ACC/LSF = Radar + Camera, for speeds up to 90 mph
LKAS = Camera only, for speeds 45-90 mph
RDM = Camera only, for speeds 45-90 mph
Sign Recognition = Camera only
Auto High Beam = Camera + Light Sensor​
Sign recognition wasn't working for that drive. I wonder if CMBS uses the camera for pedestrian/animal detection, or cross traffic detection, and was functional due the radar portion of the system. ACC was working though, although we don't understand what it uses the camera for, the camera can't detect true depth, just a simple algorithm based on aperture focus to estimate a distance from an object.

PS, some of those pictures were while I was driving, I know. I'm a naughty boy.
 

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Sign recognition wasn't working for that drive. I wonder if CMBS uses the camera for pedestrian/animal detection, or cross traffic detection, and was functional due the radar portion of the system. ACC was working though, although we don't understand what it uses the camera for, the camera can't detect true depth, just a simple algorithm based on aperture focus to estimate a distance from an object.

PS, some of those pictures were while I was driving, I know. I'm a naughty boy.
Umm... please be careful while you're driving, especially if/when your other systems are going wonky. We want you to remain around for the forum, pictures or not. :)

For a visual of the radar and camera working together, I like this (non-Honda) video which demonstrates what the radar and camera read individually, and what can be detected when the two systems are used in "fusion" together. CMBS and ACC/LSF would use this "fusion" method to incorporate both the radar and camera inputs. The combined systems improve detection BUT also requires more programming choices from a manufacturer to tune the inputs.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Umm... please be careful while you're driving, especially if/when your other systems are going wonky. We want you to remain around for the forum, pictures or not. :)

For a visual of the radar and camera working together, I like this (non-Honda) video which demonstrates what the radar and camera read individually, and what can be detected when the two systems are used in "fusion" together. CMBS and ACC/LSF would use this "fusion" method to incorporate both the radar and camera inputs. The combined systems improve detection BUT also requires more programming choices from a manufacturer to tune the inputs.
I'm always careful, pictures "while driving" we taken at red lights.
 
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