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Electronics go Haywire.

48K views 147 replies 17 participants last post by  WorldThatHeSees 
#1 ·
Ok, we picked up our Insight EX 4/27/19 and have driven it approximately 625 miles. Today when we started it, the dash lit up like a Christmas tree with warnings. Basically everything that was camera dependent failed. LKA, CMBS, RDM. My first thought was that maybe a petal or pollen was obstructing the view for the camera. Put the car in reverse, no back up camera. Put the left turn signal on to pull out onto the street, no turn signal indicator, no noise. Pulled up the next intersection, put the right turn signal on, no noise, no indicators and no camera. Drove the 7 miles to drop my significant other off at her job. Put on the 4 ways, no indicator, no sound. Got out and checked the camera, and radar module, everything appeared fine and free of obstruction. Stopped by the dealership on my way into work to set up an appointment. Got back into the car (off for a few minutes). Car started up fine, everything working again.

I'm just curious if anyone else has experienced anything like this. It's one thing when CarPlay acts up (volume won't go past 11, have to disconnect and reconnect and then it works fine). Dealership said that there were no outstanding recalls on our Insight, so I assume that the backup camera one was done before sale, although I will confirm when I have more time on Friday and it's at the dealership.
 
#2 ·
Did all other indicators/displays work during the time when the camera-dependent items failed? There have been reports of Frozen LCD screen, but that doesn't quite sound like your issue. The cameras are separate for front, side, and rear - so it seems very unusual they'd fail concurrently.

There's a complaint dated 8/21/18 that sounds similar, listed on the NHTSA site (but no resolution indicated) stating: "THERE WAS AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM WHICH PREVENTED USE OF TURN SIGNALS, LIGHTS AND OTHER SYSTEMS. THIS PERSISTED FOR THE FOUR MILE DRIVE HOME. AFTER PARKING THE CAR, UNLOADING GROCERIES (USING MANUAL TRUNK UNLOCK) THEN RETURNING LATER, ALL SYSTEMS WERE WORKING AGAIN."

Net, it sounds like this 'systemwide failure' issue has been reported for at least one other car/driver, though not yet on this forum.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Cruise control "normal and acc" still appeared green on the dash. Didn't get a chance to use those.

When put in reverse, the screen did not change at all, still showed media source, and was functional. Tune, volume change worked. Touchscreen worked, went to power flow with no problem.

When the lane change camera was turned on by pressing the button, it showed a black screen. When the turn signal was used, no screen change.

On my drive in to her work, the construction didn't cause lane keep assist or another other warnings as it usually does.

The regenerative braking paddles operated normally. The dash cluster worked normally, the speedometer worked normally. Headlights, windshield wipers worked normally, and the headlight indicator in the cluster worked normally.

All of the other safety features showed up as orange icons, including the brake system warning light.

All of the exterior lighting worked, including the turn signals, just no noise or dash instrument related to the turn signals and four-way hazards. Key fob worked, door locks worked. The parking brake and gear selector worked. The car shut down and turned back on the first time to welcome me to the same set of warnings. It wasn't until I had shut the car down for a few minutes that it seemed to reset.
 
#4 ·
I suspect it to be one of two things. Either software, or a short. Unfortunately I haven't accessed or even know if I can; the schematics to see where and how all of these systems tie together. There is no reason for the camera in the windshield to have caused issues with the other two cameras. I do know that the rear and passenger camera are all tied into the infotainment system, but I don't know why the front camera would be.

Other than the loss of the driver aids, and dash indications, everything else seemed to be functioning properly. It drove, steered and stopped like it does on every other trip.
 
#5 ·
I suspect it to be one of two things. Either software, or a short. Unfortunately I haven't accessed or even know if I can; the schematics to see where and how all of these systems tie together. There is no reason for the camera in the windshield to have caused issues with the other two cameras. I do know that the rear and passenger camera are all tied into the infotainment system, but I don't know why the front camera would be.

@INSIGHT_OUTTASIGHT posted this diagram in the "Audio Wiring Harness" thread, which may help if you want to check physical connections for the infotainment system. LaneWatch and Rearview camera connections are listed, and no obvious mention of the the front sensor camera, as expected.
 
#6 ·
I’ve heard of this exact thing happening to a Hyundai Sonata. The rear camera failed and because newer cars are Can-bus and interconnected, one failure causes a cascade event leading to all other systems throwing up warnings. Replacing the faulty camera fixed the issue. You could very well have a wonky camera or a malfunctioning body control module. If it happens again, I’d suggest driving it straight to the dealer so they can verify and trouble shoot.
 
#7 ·
It's going in on Friday to see if they can find anything and if any codes posted. I'm coming from a Colorado, so I know all about can-bus screwing with everything.
 
#8 ·
Just to post back an update. The car passed every test, and they noted all bcm codes that were set, on our vehicle file. If it happens again they will begin looking at replacing the bcm. The car had already received the update for the infotainment system for the recall. So far it has only happened one time, and because it isn't reproducible, it's a wait and see type of issue for now.
 
#9 ·
BCM is a new term for me, so I thought I'd google and ask the forum if there are other/better descriptions:

"In automotive electronics, body control module (BCM) is a generic term for an electronic control unit (ECU) responsible for monitoring and controlling various electronic accessories in a vehicle's body. Typically in a car the BCM controls the power windows, power mirrors, air conditioning, immobilizer system, central locking, etc. The BCM communicates with other on-board computers via the car's vehicle bus, and its main application is controlling load drivers – actuating relays that in turn perform actions in the vehicle."

Is this what the dealer described as the relationship to BCM and issues you saw?
 
#11 ·
On Friday, leaving work, our Insight had it's second "freak-out". Got in, started the car, and was greeted with 4 "warnings". RDM failure, LKAS failure, Auto headlight failure, Auto Highbeam Failure. This time I was smart and broke out the iPhone camera. Mainly so that you guys can see what happens if the car freaks out. I also took video, to show some things a picture can't show. I'll add the videos later.

What I'd like to let everyone know, is that these momentary issues do generally correct themselves on the subsequent start. (I generally drive for 10-15 minutes. Then shut the car off for ~10 minutes). On the following restart the issues have "corrected" themselves.

Album of Pictures

Interestingly, I also discovered that the errors extend beyond the DII and interior. They actually affect the functionality of the headlights, and disable DRL operation completely.
 
#12 ·
I wonder if the Insight is using the QNX embedded operating system? This is a pretty rugged and dependable system so I would be suspicious if the problem "corrects" itself on a restart. Multiple failures would indicate to me some common problem such as a loose plug or bad ground somewhere that is changed once the car is restarted and shakes around a bit. Is it always the same set of errors that you see? The software could be fooled by a bad connection leading to multiple out of range readings. If you are seeing this with different failures that I would tend to suspect something on the main computer board corrupting the incoming signals as the common element, but if the same set of failures are popping up then I would suspect something common to those particular signals not on the main circuit board.
 
#13 ·
It's happened twice over 4800 miles. Both similar situations, which leads me to believe there is an issue with the BCM and/or wiring going to the BCM.

The issue that I do have is the different systems that are affected.
DRL fail completely (NO illumination, even when selected on stalk). (Stalk)(headlight assemblies)(BCM)
Turn signal indicators fail to display, no "clicking" sound. (DII)(BCM)
HighBeams fail completely. (Stalk?)(Headlight assemblies)(BCM)
Road departure mitigation fails (Camera)(BCM)
LKAS fails (Camera)(BCM)
Auto high beams, and auto lighting fail (sensor on dash).(BCM)
Brake maintenance indicator. (ABS, Brakes, BCM, PCM etc...)

I'm curious to see if the dealership decides to replace any of the affected components, the bcm, or put us up in a loaner until they can diagnose.

The worst thing is that because this issue self corrects, it doesn't store any relevant data. Last dealership visit, they "reset" the BCM. It's been ~2 months since the last time it happened.
 
#14 ·
Wow, what a set of (unfortunate) pictures. I was wondering if temperature might have been at play, but your dash display shows 'only' 78F. In terms of working thru and/or working past these issues if they happen:

Q1 - What steps do you take when you see all of those messages? Do you shut it down, then re-start it to drive the 10-15 minutes? Or does the car still start immediately after getting all those messages?

Q2 - Are you able to override any of the features (e.g. use manual headlights vs auto-headlights) or does everything get disabled once those messages appear?
 
#16 ·
Car was parked in the shade this time, last time was first thing in the morning, so no direct sunlight on the camera. I have no issues with my camera any other time. (Yesterday at the convention center, the car registered 107*, and no issues at all).

A1- It happens during the turn-on process. Immediately shutting down and restarting does nothing. The car drives and mostly functions as it should (basically if it were a 1st gen insight). No "Honda safety features". I have to drive the vehicle for 10-15 minutes. Then shut it down and wait to restart. (assuming so the software actually goes through checking sensors, etc... then cool down for the sensors to reset.)

A2- Normal headlights work with manual controls, turn signals work (the actual lights) just no display on DII. Day time running lights and High Beams do not function at all.
 
#17 ·
The car wasn't even warm. didn't turn the ac on at all that trip. It was in the shade.
 
#20 ·
Electrical issues are so hard to diagnose on modern day cars due to so many sensors controlling different parts of the car. When did it happen during your first time experiencing this? I would bring it back to the dealership so they can forward this issue to Honda and have a record on file that this happened to you again.
 
#21 ·
It went in for the first time as well. The fact that it repeated, allowed me the opportunity to document the error while it was happening.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Also the parking brake did in fact release when the Brake Service Light was illuminated. I always engage it when parked.

I know for a fact that when you manually adjust the headlight stalk, it sends a signal to the BCM, it's not directly wired to any lights. So lets pose this hypothesis.

A connection issue, or software issue with the camera sensor. It gets stuck in an open loop, or loses communication with the BCM. Since the camera is tied in with RDM, LKAS, and the headlights through auto-high beam, this makes sense of why the daytime running lights and high beams, didn't work.

Since the lighting is all tied into the BCM, and since DRL aren't federally mandated, there probably isn't a back-up for DRL setting on the stalk. The headlights and turn signals are most likely designed to be capable of activating their respective lights due to federal mandates, even in the event of a BCM failure, and Honda knows that if there is an issue with federally mandated safety equipment, that means recalls.

Since LKAS and RDM, have some ties to stability control, that could explain the brake system illumination.

Just trying to work the problem backwards.

The fact that the back-up camera failed the first time and not the second could point to a slightly different issue than the first time, or that the BCM didn't seem to get as confused as the first time. Who knows, maybe the dealership reinstalled the software from the first recall, and now the back-up camera has a backup in the software.

Also I know for a fact that the "clicking noise" from the turn signal is a function of the BCM in most cars.

So by basic logic, the issue is either the camera module, or the bcm, or their respective wiring. If the camera module isn't the culprit, the BCM is tied into literally EVERYTHING, oh boy!
 
#30 ·
If one or more of these symptoms are present at the same time, chances are it’s an issue with the BCM, and not the statistically less likely situation of multiple vehicle features failing simultaneously. If the problems occur intermittently, however, you might need to look into other causes, such as a bad battery or alternator – which won’t provide the level of voltage required for normal operation – or an issue with the fuses or relays in the electrical system. Bad Body Control Module? Here's How to TellNAPA Know How Blog
Could it be possible this is being caused by a bad fuse to one of the sensors in the car since your symptoms are intermittent? @Johudso7 had an intermittent issue with his TPMS and the dealership fixed it by replacing a fuse plus reseated the wire harness to the ECM. https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/7...essure-monitoring-system-error.html#post14478


I could be wrong and just talking out of my ass. :eek:
 
#31 ·
They are testing the battery Saturday and re-inspecting everything. If this intermittent failure wasn't so far and few between, I'd lean more towards wiring/ground/fuse. But twice in 2 months, almost 4000 miles in between. And I live in NY, if it were a loose connection/ wiring issue, fuse filament etc... it should be a more prevalent issue.
 
#39 ·
Correct, but unless you have LKAS turned off manually, both systems are used in concert when using ACC to self navigate as long as your hands are on the wheel. I was just explaining that the camera would be used for this function to work and if his cam is still seeing the lines when ACC is engaged, it’s most likely a BCM issue.
 
#41 ·
Also wanted to point out that during that drive, I had no option to try and engage LKAS, it was disabled. ACC worked the same that it always does during that part of my commute.

Since LKAS only works at 45+, and it's a 40mph road, I never use LKAS for that section of my commute. In fact I hardly use LKAS at all, except for extended highway jaunts, it's far too heavily reliant on the right line/curb to work reliably during most of my normal commutes.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Ok, here’s a question for you...did you notice if the green LKAS idiot light was illuminated when you turned on ACC? On my car, when ACC is turned on, even at speeds below 45, the LKAS idiot light is also illuminated. It doesn’t steer the car below that speed, but it does show its “on”.
 
#47 ·
I have noticed this as well. I haven't timed it, but I do believe there is an overlap built into the software, incase the car in front of you slows down. I have to say that I do wish there was more of an alert built into when LKAS disables. I can't always be looking away from the road to see what the car is up to.
 
#49 ·
Good news is we seem to have an answer, the DII had a communication error with the BCM. There is some software update for the car, that was available. They updated the software and reset the BCM.

Definitely appeared to be a software caused issue, Honda's flow-chart tests seem to support our hypothesis, we just landed on the wrong piece of hardware causing the issue, (maybe). If it happens again, we learn more.
 
#54 ·
Please call your dealership and have them at least look at it and document it. I haven't had any issues with the software update yet. I will update if I have any further software issues.
 
#56 ·
It has 19,000 miles and worked completely fine until about halfway through the day yesterday. The screen works and displays what it's supposed to, and even changes to the camera view when making a right turn. But touching it no longer does anything. Also, every system is showing as turned off or incomplete, or failed or whatever. This includes the TPMS, ACC, LKAS, break hold, the other driving modes (sport, eco, EV), regular cruise control, and everything else that you can think of. The people at Honda are utterly useless and refuse to look at the car until I make an appointment later next week. I have a feeling that because it's technical and not mechanical, there's got to be some sort of reset feature somewhere. But what is going on with my car?
 
#60 · (Edited)
Is that the only Honda dealership in your area? If not try another one to see if they can take a look at your car quicker.


I don't think an infotainment system reboot will fix your problem since your Honda Sense systems are not working. The only way to reset and read what's causing those errors is the diagnostic tool Honda techs have access to. My best guess is that your 12v battery might be failing to supply enough power for those features to function. Ask them for a battery health report on the 12v battery even if they think it's something else.
 
#57 ·
#59 ·
That's a lot of systems affected (Sensing, braking, modes, infotainment), with seemingly no direct connection.
- Are you able to drive the car 'normally' in that the engine and hybrid functions still operate as they should?
- Do the error messages appear at start-up or mid-drive?

Honda techs have device that can be plugged into the OBD system to find/detect specific error messages and help with troubleshooting. You could invest in buying a simpler OBD, but it may not be as helpful - https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/5...ies-add-ons/742-obdii-blue-tooth-adapter.html
 
#66 ·
I know a few others have had similar issues. We only have around 579 miles on the Car. I see things like the Battery, Sensors or Software Updates to help with communications with the BCM can cause this. We haven't added any extra Electrical Accessories. The one regret we have is that the day after we got the Car we noticed the under Hood Battery Cover had come off. I found it and noticed someone had broken one of the hinges on the bottom terminal case. If it was just the Cover that was broken, that would be a 1 minute fix. I could have glued the part and probably had no issues with it. But we thought it would be an easy fix for the Dealer to replace the Jump Box Case. They did that but we found out after wards that it was far from easy. That part comes with the complete Harness which is like a giant Spider Web that starts from the Front of the Car and all the way to the back. Its also not a straight run. It took them 2 days. On the report it said they had to remove Body Panels, Bumpers, etc. It also showed on the Invoice they had to empty the AC Refrigeration and refill it. It also shows they had to bleed the Brake Lines. This was done 3-24-2020.

Moving forward we have only been driving the Car a couple of days a week locally due to the Pandemic. Last week out of no where suddenly we are getting all these trouble warnings. I know we will probably have to check with the Dealer to see the best way to get it to them and how there Service Department is handling business with the Pandemic. I've attached some Photos. Right now the Honda Link Remote features hasn't been working for over a week, but it may be due to the fact that Honda got hacked.

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#78 ·
Lately when I start the car I get the lkas, acc, cmbs, and high beam failure warnings. Car drives normally but dash lit up like a Christmas tree. Restarting the car will clear it but you may have to do it a few times.
The one thing I've noticed is the problem only occurs when warm outside (upper 80's). Could that be the problem, the car interior getting too hot? It was fine last summer. The only change I made was putting leather seat covers over my cloth seats.
Has anyone else seen this?
Thanks
 
#80 ·
Lately when I start the car I get the lkas, acc, cmbs, and high beam failure warnings. Car drives normally but dash lit up like a Christmas tree. Restarting the car will clear it but you may have to do it a few times.

The one thing I've noticed is the problem only occurs when warm outside (upper 80's). Could that be the problem, the car interior getting too hot? It was fine last summer. The only change I made was putting leather seat covers over my cloth seats.
It sounds like the alerts are Honda Sensing (radar / camera) related. Coupled with your comments on heat, my guess (?) is that there's something happening with the camera (e.g. plastic housing expansion causing camera to misalign OR heat build-up in housing causing camera to malfunction?)

Do you use a sun shade on these warmer days and/or is there anything else that's in contact with the camera housing (behind the rearview mirror)? The Owners Manual warns heat can concentrate if the camera is covered with reflective sun shade. - Windshield Sun Shade - essential accessory for this...
 
#79 ·
I dropped it off at the Dealer yesterday. I get a reply today so far all they found was the Battery said low voltage but it passed the Battery test. I told them to contact the Engineers to get more ideas as I don't want to pick up the Car with all this going on. If I can get these errors to pop up even if not daily by just pushing the start button and then backing out a little ways and going forward a little ways, then they should be able to. This is what I did on Saturday to get the 5 Brake warnings on my Honda Link App. The Dash light ups as seen in my Photos have a mind of their own. The Dealer is 1 hour away and with the Pandemic I don't want to play back and forth so we shall see how this all plays out. With the Battery showing low voltage, I wonder if it could be just starting to fail but not far enough along so it still can pass the Battery test? Again, the X Factor is they replaced the Car's entire Wire Harness which is huge a couple of weeks after we purchased the Car. This was all due to what I thought would be a simple replacement of the Jump Box that had a broken latch so it fell off the Car on the way Home from the Dealer the evening we purchased the Car.
 
#81 ·
I dropped it off at the Dealer yesterday. I get a reply today so far all they found was the Battery said low voltage but it passed the Battery test.
[...]
With the Battery showing low voltage, I wonder if it could be just starting to fail but not far enough along so it still can pass the Battery test? Again, the X Factor is they replaced the Car's entire Wire Harness which is huge a couple of weeks after we purchased the Car.
Seems possible that it's on the early side of failure. Once it discharges below the 12V threshold, AGM battery life is permanently shortened. - Defective 12 Volt Battery

I can't recall, but do you have dash cams or other accessories that are left plugged into the car when not running?
 
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