[hasarad]

Head scratcher:

I understand that EV mode is unavailable during such times when the cabin is being heated or the engine is too cold since the display will tell you that explicitly, but when the message is simply "EV Mode Unavailable," exactly WHY is it unavailable? I would think there would be an explanation like the other times. When this happens, the battery gets to about 80%, and EV mode is able to kick in. Am I the only one?

 

[autotech]

This rarely happens, but I've noticed this also.
I also see "engine is too cold" as the reason for EV mode not being available sometimes, but this doesn't make sense too, since the car can go EV mode on cold start. That's when the engine is the coldest.

Your fuelly MPG number is amazing btw.

 

[SexyFlanders]

This rarely happens, but I've noticed this also.
I also see "engine is too cold" as the reason for EV mode not being available sometimes, but this doesn't make sense too, since the car can go EV mode on cold start. That's when the engine is the coldest.

Your fuelly MPG number is amazing btw.

My guess is you don't want a cold engine starting and stopping. When you start driving you can be in EV mode, but once that engine kicks on the first time it needs to warm up before it turns off again. Then, a warm engine can start and stop as needed.

 

[ddemetra]

His would be similar to my 2017 civic or 2016 hrv.
If coasting with the foot off the pedal it will go in zero gas mode and stop injecting fuel.
It adjusts the cvt to minimize engine rotation and spins it using the cars inertia
But it will only do this after the engine is up to temperature

 

[Moviemike]

Page 12 of the on-line owners manual gives 5 possible reasons.


1. The high voltage battery charge level is low.
2. Vehicle speed is too high.
3. Speed is above 25 mph while engine is in warm-up operation.
4. You fully depress the accelerator pedal.
5. You are driving on a hilly road.

My additional question is. If one selects EV mode and then it is canceled; will it return to EV mode on its own, after the reason for the cancelation has been addressed?

 

[mgldan]

My additional question is. If one selects EV mode and then it is canceled; will it return to EV mode on its own, after the reason for the cancelation has been addressed?

No, it won't. But I think EV Mode (the button by the shifter) is a placebo. Insight goes into an electric-only mode on its own when it's efficient: for example, when you're going downhill, or when you're holding a very steady speed on a straightaway. You can tell by when the lower left (not the lower right) indicator is illuminated. As was explained by someone else in another thread, the goal is not to keep the battery at full, but to use the electric charge. In my experience the car does so relatively aggressively.

The car might stay in electric-only mode longer when you're in EV Mode than when you're not, but eventually that charge is going to get used. And Insight's battery is pretty small, so it'll get used quickly, leaving less time for the stored charge to deplete.

 

[Moviemike]

Thank you mgldan for your detailed reply! There's nothing like real world experience to answer some of these questions!

I've been thinking about ways and "how to's" of squeezing even better mpg out of the gen3 system. My thinking at this point, is that the usefulness of the EV button is to prevent the ICE from turning on, until of course EV mode is canceled. This allows the driver to select the best circumstances for refilling the battery. For example at the top of a big hill, or steady cruising at 40-50 mph.

Have also been thinking along similar lines about the Sport button. My thought today, is to use gentle gas pedal pressure while in Sport mode during steady cruising, to fill the battery beyond the 5 bars mid-point people have talked about. Then with a nearly fully charged battery at the bottom of a hill, one could switch into EV mode to climb the hill. One than arrives at the top of the hill with low battery charge level; and no use of additional gasoline, to get up the hill. Finally, maximum regen could then be used going down the hill, replacing the energy / state of charge obtained from the gasoline used during the Sport mode run.

What do ya (and others) think?

 

[mgldan]

Personally, I think it's a lot of work. If I did this on my drive I'd never get to stop thinking about it. It's not like I have one big hill and then flatness; it's hilly on my drive basically all the way. If I did 40 MPH (to try to stay in electric mode) all the way up the hill I'd get run over by the traffic that wants to do at least 60 MPH.

My variance along the same drive from day to day is about 2 MPG. Can these methods overcome that intrinsic variance? If not, then you'll never know whether all the hypermiling does anything. If you have the ability to try a route in your 2015 Civic Hybrid, do it with and without the procedures you're describing, then compare the fuel efficiency and let us know.

 

[Moviemike]

Personally, I think it's a lot of work. If I did this on my drive I'd never get to stop thinking about it. It's not like I have one big hill and then flatness; it's hilly on my drive basically all the way. If I did 40 MPH (to try to stay in electric mode) all the way up the hill I'd get run over by the traffic that wants to do at least 60 MPH.

Yeah it would be allot of work if one did this kinda stuff all the time, or felt some kind of obligation. That's not the case with me. For me it's definitely a hobby, an MPG Challenge; as I touched on it in my introductory posting.

If I were driving that road that takes you to work, I'd likely be traveling near 60mph along with everybody else. A difference may be that I'd be going slower at the top of the hill than at the bottom. Secondly I probably wouldn't be passing any slower vehicles till I got to the top.

My variance along the same drive from day to day is about 2 MPG. Can these methods overcome that intrinsic variance? If not, then you'll never know whether all the hypermiling does anything. If you have the ability to try a route in your 2015 Civic Hybrid, do it with and without the procedures you're describing, then compare the fuel efficiency and let us know.

Does hyper-milling actually do anything? And if so how much? A very good question I looked at years ago with my gen2 Insight. The short answer is about 20%. What I did was search out what I was doing to explain my above EPA average mpg. What I found was that around 40% of the improvement was in increased tire pressures. Another 40% was in basic good mpg driving habits, such as avoiding hard acceleration, especially when hill climbing, using some extra space to slow down and timing on coming traffic lights to catch the green. All the hyper milling games and maneuvers just got me that last 20%.

As a hobby I can play or not play hyper miler, As the inclination arrives or not. As a hobby that 2 mpg difference might lead me to experiment with different buttons, routes, or driving style approaches to specified portions of my daily drive. When experimenting I always use the trip computer measurements in the specified portion, for accurate comparison purposes. Sometimes the difference is traffic, bad or good luck with traffic lights, wet roads, or a strong head wind. But sometimes the difference is a change in driving style, which I can form into a daily habit

A few months ago my wife and I did a day trip to Eugene. It's 100 miles each way, 2/3 on two lane highway, speed limit is 55, I cruise 60, some like 65. 1/3 is Interstate 5. Speed limit 65, I cruise 70. The Civic Hybrid is EPA rated 44 city, 47 highway. I got 52mpg for the round trip (per trip computer). In the summer I once got close to 54 for the same trip, don't ask me what I did to get it.

 

[autotech]

My guess is you don't want a cold engine starting and stopping. When you start driving you can be in EV mode, but once that engine kicks on the first time it needs to warm up before it turns off again. Then, a warm engine can start and stop as needed.

This totally makes sense. I paid attention to EV mode at cold start and verified it's doing what you're saying.

 

[insightfully]

Got my first "EV Mode Unavailable - Cabin Being Heated" for the season. Exterior temps were in the 40s, and interior temperature was set to 58F. Was frustrating since battery was at 8 bars, and I usually like to milk the mpg on this leg of my drive.

The following things came to mind:
- Ideal battery operating temperature is 59F to 95F (from SAE)
- Batteries achieve optimum service life if used at 68°F or slightly below (from Battery University)
- In cold weather (<50F), I can only use the HV battery down to 4 bars before charging starts, whereas I could get down to 2 bars in warmer weather.

It made me wonder if running a warmer cabin temperature would yield better overall EV results. Short term, there is extra fuel and ICE run time to warm the cabin... but for the rest of drive, could a warmer cabin allow me to pull from the battery for longer in cold weather?

Reasonable theory? Hocus baloney? Any experience with optimizing this already, or other thoughts?

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

Got my first "EV Mode Unavailable - Cabin Being Heated" for the season. Exterior temps were in the 40s, and interior temperature was set to 58F. Was frustrating since battery was at 8 bars, and I usually like to milk the mpg on this leg of my drive.

The following things came to mind:
- Ideal battery operating temperature is 59F to 95F (from SAE)
- Batteries achieve optimum service life if used at 68°F or slightly below (from Battery University)
- In cold weather (<50F), I can only use the HV battery down to 4 bars before charging starts, whereas I could get down to 2 bars in warmer weather.

It made me wonder if running a warmer cabin temperature would yield better overall EV results. Short term, there is extra fuel and ICE run time to warm the cabin... but for the rest of drive, could a warmer cabin allow me to pull from the battery for longer in cold weather?

Reasonable theory? Hocus baloney? Any experience with optimizing this already, or other thoughts?

Not a terrible theory, heating is less efficient in terms of insulation. Heat escapes more quickly (think of your favorite insulated beverage container; mine keeps cool for 20hrs, hot for 4). Although use of battery, does warm it, the real question is: Do the vent fans operate to warm the battery the same way that they come on to cool the battery?

 

[insightfully]

Not a terrible theory, heating is less efficient in terms of insulation. Heat escapes more quickly (think of your favorite insulated beverage container; mine keeps cool for 20hrs, hot for 4). Although use of battery, does warm it, the real question is: Do the vent fans operate to warm the battery the same way that they come on to cool the battery?

Interesting point. Maybe it's the HVAC fan that needs to circulate/maintain the temperature, to get it to the HV battery. The battery's fan IS called a 'cooling fan' rather than 'temperature regulating fan' - so maybe it's just to manage extreme battery overheating rather than pulling in warmer air.

Maybe @andrew28 can help find additional info on the Honda R&D site that might answer this, building on battery vent insights from the following thread (?) - https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/9158-post2.html

 

[hasarad]

I invoked the tip that the first Motor Trend review had for "free" cabin heat. I set the temp to high and selected the desired output configuration (floor and dash) and then turned the HVAC system off. There was a slight flow of warm air into the cabin. I was comfortable within a few minutes. By the time I got to the office an hour later, I was almost too warm. Try it - it works!

 

[insightfully]

I invoked the tip that the first Motor Trend review had for "free" cabin heat. I set the temp to high and selected the desired output configuration (floor and dash) and then turned the HVAC system off. There was a slight flow of warm air into the cabin. I was comfortable within a few minutes. By the time I got to the office an hour later, I was almost too warm. Try it - it works!

I'll re-try it. It got a little stuffy the last time I tried so I gave up, but maybe the overall exterior temp was still too warm. It's cooled down since then, so I'll give it another go.

For those of us who have daily drives <1 hour each way, what would you estimate the 'few minutes' to be for cabin to get comfortable via passive heating? 5 min? Or more?

And for others who haven't yet seen the passive/cooling heating tip - see the following thread for more detail:
https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/2...rface/2904-passive-cabin-heating-cooling.html

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

Interesting point. Maybe it's the HVAC fan that needs to circulate/maintain the temperature, to get it to the HV battery. The battery's fan IS called a 'cooling fan' rather than 'temperature regulating fan' - so maybe it's just to manage extreme battery overheating rather than pulling in warmer air.

Maybe @andrew28 can help find additional info on the Honda R&D site that might answer this, building on battery vent insights from the following thread (?) - https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/9158-post2.html

I mean if someone wanted to make a module for a manual battery fan switch, it could be beneficial to those of us in colder climates. Although it is a trade off, venting warm air means the cabin heater (ICE) would probably have to run more.

The most elegant solution would be using a liquid system like the Clarity, and allowing the fluid to either be cooled or heated to keep the battery in peak operating temperature range.

 

[Moviemike]

I'll re-try it. It got a little stuffy the last time I tried so I gave up, but maybe the overall exterior temp was still too warm.

.
I've been using the following approach for a long time in several cars. I always use manual heater or AC clarity control, never set it and forget it "climate control".

At morning start up, I'll insure heating system is off. If very cold over night will keep system off, turn temperature to 60, drive till engine warmed up (in some cvt cars use "S" for higher rpm to warm up faster), then turn temp. to high, when warn air available (usually about 5-10 minutes or less of driving), turn on fan to warm cabin to comfortable temp., when comfortable reduce temp. to 68-72 and turn off fan, then pretty much forget it.

I've had limited heater use back in March / April and only very brief use about a week ago, but did notice the engine turn on when I switched on the heater fan. I'm also getting engine on for regen. at 4 bars many times. This changed from 2 sometimes 3 bars when outside temp. dropped into the mid 50's. "Sluggish" is a good word for current HV battery recharge now. Yesterday's drive should have been in the low 70's mpg, but I came in with a low 68 mpg (The system went through 3 "EV Unavailable Engine Too Cold" cycles vs 1 or 2 during 3 very short "current drives.")

My intuition says warm cabin air will leak through the cooling fan area and improve HV battery performance. Don't know (but would like to)! Currently using the last of summer gas.

 

[IronQQQ]

So I got this message, "EV Mode Not Available, Engine Too Cold" and laughed (see attached). I have near full charge (see pic). What does ICE engine have to do with this?

Sure... Maybe the battery needs to be preheated (such as in other EVs to get full power output or for max charging rates)... But I thought well... it's only 58 F.. and seriously.... even Leafs with passive only cooling don't need to preheat and I doubt this car has preheat capability.

So I back the Insight out of the garage a lot and if the car is left with climate on and if the ambient and cabin are colder than the climate setting, which it usually is, the ICE will come on. This is annoying as the ICE fires and the exhaust will blow into the garage for me to back out 20 ft. Not to mention I've subjected the ICE to yet another cold startup cycle where you get the most engine wear.

A couple ways to overcome this come to mind so I tried them.

1. Select EV mode before hitting the Start/Engine On whatever you call it button. However that's not possible.

2. Start the car, ICE fires up, hit the EV mode button. This gives me the silly message. ICE stays on.

3. Start the car, ICE fires up, turn off climate and then hit EV mode. But that doesn't work either. I get the silly message.

I know it's a silly message because if .. let's call it scenario 4.

4. Start the car, ICE fires, shut off climate, shUT off the car, restart the car, the car will be in EV mode and I can back it out of the driveway without the ICE ever firing up. I call the Engine too Cold message BS.

So I then went to the owners manual and looked at the reason for the error message. Naturally, no explanation is provided (see attached).

<sigh>

 

[andrew28]

https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/2...2638-honda-insight-questions-3.html#post18132
We figured it had to do with the engine burning off excess fuel vapors in the charcoal canister.

My Insight always start off in EV mode when I turn it on no matter the temperature(except probably single digits but I haven't got single digit temps yet) as long as...

• I didn't end my previous trip with a low battery like 3 bars
• I had my heater off
• Not doing the purging charcoal canister thing

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/2...2638-honda-insight-questions-3.html#post18132
We figured it had to do with the engine burning off excess fuel vapors in the charcoal canister.

My Insight always start off in EV mode when I turn it on no matter the temperature(except probably single digits but I haven't got single digit temps yet) as long as...

• I didn't end my previous trip with a low battery like 3 bars
• I had my heater off
• Not doing the purging charcoal canister thing

At 17* if I remember correctly, it started with ICE on. As long as climate control is off, it starts in EV as long as SOC is 4 bars, ICE kicks in usually about 50-100 feet after moving if @4 bars.