[Verdier]

I have been driving many cars as of late seeing how they compare to the insight when it comes to the technology. Now from what I've learned it seems that most of the tech like ACC, LKA, and LDM pretty much come from the same main manufacturers with the implementation being different in software response. Case in point the adaptive cruise control.
I drive almost always with cruise control on. This along with active lane keep assistance makes my one hour drive more comfortable and less stressing. I have been looking for a second car and have found none that have cruise control that acts like Honda's. For example: you can literally press the cruise control set button from a stop and the car will go from a complete stop to 25mph or whatever you set making it possible to drive the car on cruise control with little input from the driver except when necessary. All other high tech cars I have driven insist you get to 25mph before the cruise can be activated. Another example is the stopping when in ACC. If you're in cruise and the cars in front of you stop the insight will come to a complete stop and resume when you hit the gas or cruise resume button ( the new Prius does this too) but the difference is in the Prius if the car at the light that the ACC has in radar turns at the corner as you start accelerating and you haven't gotten to at least 20 or so mph the cruise will disconnect and make you reset it. Same happens if you start moving at the light and you decide to slide over to the more open lane to your left as example, once the Prius loses radar contact for a second it disconnects and makes you speed up to restart cruise. The Honda, in both these situations, sees no one in front of you and proceeds to accelerate to the cruise speed barring any cars ahead. Basically anytime I have to decelerate on my own, even to low speeds, I can just tap the cruise resume button and the car will check the radar ahead and go to the set speed. This is one of the philosophy choices that has made it very difficult for me to find a non Honda car I want as a secondary car. I am thoroughly addicted to this cruise system and I love it. Any opinions?

 

[insightfully]

This is an interesting recap of your ACC observations. Even more interesting when coupled with the article posted by @andrew28 which mentions that Honda Sensing was outsourced through a standard off-the-shelf Bosch package.

"The car maker had hoped to persuade Bosch to build something unique for it but eventually decided to buy an off-the-shelf system after the German company, which deals with practically every major auto maker, said it was impractical, the person said."

Given the standard platform, it seems like it should be "easy" to find cars with comparable cruise control capabilities. Perhaps differences in sensor placement, sensor sensitivity, and automaker parameter choices are what distinguish the technology between makes. It's nice to hear that the Insight's Honda Sensing is at the top of the list among cars you've tested!

https://www.wsj.com/articles/honda-took-pride-in-doing-everything-itself-the-cost-of-technology-made-that-impossible-1533484840
^Here's an interesting article about Honda's safety tech that I read about a few months ago.
Google "honda safety outsourced" and clicking the first link should allow you to read the full article.

 

[Verdier]

Comparable, yes, but not the same. I think it could be considered brave of Honda to allow activation of the cruise from a complete stop without prior radar contact causing that stop. Such a set up could be argued to be indusive to increasing the chance of customer negligence by the overuse and reliance of automation. I must say I appreciate Honda's trust in the consumer in this regard. What you said also gives me the idea that it would probably be possible to change the behaviour of cruise systems that don't act this way, to act this way. More than likely if most of the cars are fitted with systems from the same manufacturer then a mere hack could be done on most cars to litterally turn on the engage the cruise from full stop feature just by changing a parameter.

 

[Verdier]

Hey guys I just uploaded a video to my channel I would really like the community's opinion on. I have spoken many times here and on my channel about how much I love the acc cruise on the Insight and how it needs to be used responsibly and not depended on without driver oversight. In this video I capture the moment the cruise fails to work as expected. This same scenario happens way to often on this car and needs to be addressed. I have had this same exact senario happen on the fusion energi maybe twice, but on the Honda it happens very often. I figure the fact the Ford doesn't have this failure often means it can possibly be remedied on the Insight. If not fixed then at least mitigated to happening far less frequently with a software or hardware fix. It's happen on all types of terrains and slopes so I really think it's fixable to a point. Sorry to ramble so much but I'd really like Honda to see this too since less responsible drivers could be put in danger by over reliance on the acc without proper driver attention. The video is on you tube and is called "2019 Honda Insight cruise control fail". I just put it up so if you can't find it my channel is called "verdier 400". I'm really interested in your guys opinion on this. Thanks.

 

[Calarity]

Unconvinced as to what is happening. too many unmentioned variables. better to show all your sense settings etc. Wouldn't there be a lot of reports of CMBS fails on Hondas or Insights? CMBS is different than cruise control. You would need to tighten your terms, show settings etc to be more convincible. Your drive safe warnings are good and I liked your Insight drive-along videos I watched before.

 

[Verdier]

Hmm don't know what info you need. I'm driving on acc cruise at 35 mph. This is about 29 minutes into a 31 minute drive. I have car distance set at 2 bars, but this makes no difference as far as I can tell because this problem has happened to me at all distance settings. I'm moving forward and I see the stopped cars ahead, but acc radar never sees the car and I have to hit the brakes to stop in time. In this scenario with the car going in the 30 to 40 mph speed, the acc on, no car currently noticed on radar, a car in the distance waiting at a red light, I'd say over 50% of the time the acc radar will not see the car at the light making me brake hard. I'm aware of this response so I'm always looking to see if acc will work when this happens. To reiterate the Ford fusion energi suffers this same failure at a rate of less than 5% so I'm convinced that this is probably a fixable problem IMHO. When I say I drive acc all the time I'm not kidding. Literally 99.5% of the time. I hope this helps clarify the video a bit more. I put this up here because I know there are a huge number of people here who are much smarter than me and I'm very interested in your opinions and discussion on this. I love this car to death and all I want to do is make it a bigger success and share it with friends.😀

 

[Honda2019]

This is rather concerning, thank you for sharing your experience Verdier. The first test drive I took with the Insight, the salesman was in the back seat and told me to put on ACC and take my foot off the break and accelerator while driving behind another car at 50mph. A stop light was coming up and he told me to just keep my foot off the break, and sure enough when the car in front of me came to a stop, so did our Insight. It was a neat sales tactic, but somewhat disconcerting as well.

According to the manual, "Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) with Low Speed Follow (LSF) should only be used when driving on expressways or freeways and in good weather conditions." It also states that when no vehicle is detected in front of you by the system, it will only function at the speed of 25 mph or above. Page 499 of the manual lists a number of "Detection Limitations", including when "the speed difference between your vehicle and the vehicle in front of you is significantly large". This would technically apply to you if you are moving at 25+ MPH and the vehicle in front of you is at a stop, like in your vehicle.

I wonder if ACC w/ LSF isn't meant to be used in city driving because it can't work properly when you don't have a "lock" on a vehicle in front of you, and you then come up to a vehicle that is already stopped.

I also know that standard cruise control (dumb type) and ACC (the "smart" type) are engaged with the exact same button on the steering wheel (press and hold the button for 5 seconds to toggle between the two types). I wonder if this has anything to do with what is going on? I assume it is all computer controlled, but I would think it would be more logical to have two separate physical buttons to control the two types of Cruise Control, especially if the "smart" type isn't 100% effective.

Looking forward to learning more about this scenario.

 

[Verdier]

Interesting. I guess rtfm could definitely apply here. Strange the Ford doesn't have as much trouble with this, but it could have an updated system software since it's a bit newer than the Insight. Either way I like having this on video so people understand visually the limitations of the technology.

 

[Mobilcams]

I would have your radar checked since it is under warranty... I haven't had one problem with mine like that.. Actually as far as collision detection goes, I had a run in with a speed table today (car was not damaged thank goodness).. The speed table was not marked and was the same color as the road.. My car actually saw it and hit the brakes.. I thought it was a glitch, then the speed table came into sight a moment later and scared the **** out of me.

All in all, it's working great on my car.. I definitely would check to make sure you don't have standard cruise control set.. If not - take it in, nothing is fullproof and sometimes work needs to be done..

One curious observation I keep meaning to ask though - does anyone know why radar on the Insight is offset? All other vehicles I have seen have them centered..

 

[andrew28]

I would have your radar checked since it is under warranty... I haven't had one problem with mine like that.. Actually as far as collision detection goes, I had a run in with a speed table today (car was not damaged thank goodness).. The speed table was not marked and was the same color as the road.. My car actually saw it and hit the brakes.. I thought it was a glitch, then the speed table came into sight a moment later and scared the **** out of me.

All in all, it's working great on my car.. I definitely would check to make sure you don't have standard cruise control set.. If not - take it in, nothing is fullproof and sometimes work needs to be done..

One curious observation I keep meaning to ask though - does anyone know why radar on the Insight is offset? All other vehicles I have seen have them centered..

Yeah, I think @Verdier should show that video to his local honda dealership. It definitely helps that he caught it on video, too. I can't comment much on my experience using ACC since I only activated it once. I prefer driving my Insight and the CMBS alert has come on as intended so far. :smile_big:

Not sure why the radar is like that on the Insight but the Civic is located even further to right by the fog light.

 

[AMCooper63]

Hmm don't know what info you need. I'm driving on acc cruise at 35 mph. This is about 29 minutes into a 31 minute drive. I have car distance set at 2 bars, but this makes no difference as far as I can tell because this problem has happened to me at all distance settings. I'm moving forward and I see the stopped cars ahead, but acc radar never sees the car and I have to hit the brakes to stop in time. In this scenario with the car going in the 30 to 40 mph speed, the acc on, no car currently noticed on radar, a car in the distance waiting at a red light, I'd say over 50% of the time the acc radar will not see the car at the light making me brake hard. I'm aware of this response so I'm always looking to see if acc will work when this happens. To reiterate the Ford fusion energi suffers this same failure at a rate of less than 5% so I'm convinced that this is probably a fixable problem IMHO. When I say I drive acc all the time I'm not kidding. Literally 99.5% of the time. I hope this helps clarify the video a bit more. I put this up here because I know there are a huge number of people here who are much smarter than me and I'm very interested in your opinions and discussion on this. I love this car to death and all I want to do is make it a bigger success and share it with friends.😀

I use ACC almost all the time. Unlike you, I'm always set to level 3. It has never failed me. I've owned my Insight for 4 months with nearly 6K miles on the car. 2K in the last three days.
Question, "... no car noticed on radar..." I'm assuming you mean the filled in car icon in the center of the instrument cluster. Do you know there is a display that shows the actual distance to a car? I have noticed that it does not detect a car more than 200 yards away. I've always assumed that car detection was independent of ACC setting. In town, I'd say that it always detects a car. They rarely get more than 200 yards in front of me. On the highway it always detects just as I expect it to. What surprises me is when I come up behind some high vehicles, like a flatbed truck. I expect it to fail there, but it has never failed.

The times that it does scare me is when I'm going more than 40MPH and the car ahead is stopped at a light. 200 yards is not far enough. My heart starts racing as the car closes on my 200 yard estimate and the Insight doesn't see the car ahead yet. My foot hovers over the brake just as the Insight detects the car and brakes more harshly than if the radar worked at a longer range. Over 40mph, I can't wait long enough for the Insight to see the care ahead. I brake first. I have some places in town with 50MPH speed limit, I always brake before the Insight can detect the car ahead.

 

[Verdier]

I see where you're coming from. In the video you see I have the same reaction and brake before the car can. Unfortunately, I know the car should have been in radar connection long before I finally hit the brakes from experience alone. If I wait any longer than I do then it becomes a high probability I might be involved in a medium to light hit on the rear of the car sitting at the light. As was posted earlier in this thread the manual says the radar may not always detect cars ahead that have a significant speed difference depending on your current speed. Personally I think this is based on the limitations of this current system to avoid false responses from say, a tree or other object that might be near enough to the road to be picked up erroneously. the only thing that has been irking me in all this is the fact the Ford fusion I have exhibits this error VERY rarely in comparison to the Insight. I have speculated about the placement of the radar in the Insight being on the driver side very low to the ground in comparison to most vehicles having the radar towards the middle behind the grill being a possible culprit. Either way I plan on making another short video explaining what I have learned and some of my theories. It certainly is not my intent to diss the car, I really wanted average people to understand the dangers of over-reliance on the system and how it can "fail" in some circumstances .

 

[andrew28]

It certainly is not my intent to diss the car, I really wanted average people to understand the dangers of over-reliance on the system and how it can "fail" in some circumstances .

It's nice to know about the possible quirks about this car and be more aware of it. Everybody's car and driving situation is different and I would rather learn about it here than on the road.

 

[Mr. Natural]

I’d take it in and get it checked. The calibration on the radar and camera might be off. Here’s an in depth article from AAA about it.
https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/adas-sensor-calibration-increases-repair-costs

 

[insightfully]

I'd also suggest just taking it to dealer @Verdier. While you haven't been in an accident, perhaps jostling from parking sensor install or even cleaning the radar may have caused repositioning in the mounting to affect use. To complement the AAA long article, this article describes scenarios for recalibration. Since Honda doesn't provide an "out of calibration" alert, there will never be anything to the system technically works but is pointed in the wrong direction. - https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2017/12/20/honda-many-common-body-shop-situations-require-adas-recalibration/

 

[andrew28]

The 2019 Honda Insight has a manufacture communication relating to radar alignment, too.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10144375-9999.pdf

 

[insightfully]

The 2019 Honda Insight has a manufacture communication relating to radar alignment, too.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10144375-9999.pdf

I think it's telling that the service article only applies to models with the externally-mounted plastic boxes (CRV, Accord, Insight, Civic). The CRV/Accord radar is center-mounted below the license plate, and the Insight/Civic radar is to the front lower right as previously mentioned.

I checked and found all other 2019 Honda models have radar centered and installed within or directly behind the front emblem (Clarity, Fit, Odyssey, Passport, Pilot, Ridgeline). This seems like a more stable design and attachment point. Hopefully this will become a standard design for all models.

 

[insightfully]

One curious observation I keep meaning to ask though - does anyone know why radar on the Insight is offset? All other vehicles I have seen have them centered..

My first thought is that radar offset provides new/different data versus the readings of the near-center camera. However, I think radar placement is ‘just’ a design choice because the radar feedback (wave) readings can be made/offset mathematically. Honda is now choosing center-mounted radar positions for most of their 2019 vehicles, and the Insight/Civic are the only 2019 Hondas with radar offset from center. An older (2017) Honda Job Aid mentions the variability in Honda mounting positions and instructs that an extra measurement line be used if the radar isn’t center mounted.

This article would be super-informative if someone has a Marklines account and can share the article from the "continue reading" section. Marklines did a teardown to reverse engineer and describe the workings of the Honda Civic (Bosch) driver assistance system, including the multi-purpose camera, millimeter wave radar, and navigation. I think it would provide info on the range/limitations of the equipment and the specific way they work together when offset.

https://www.marklines.com/en/report/rep1740_201808

 

[mgldan]

Between ACC and lane-keep assist, the only thing I have to do in urban commuting is tap the accelerator to resume from a stop and gently nudge the steering wheel.

The tech in the car is a huge advantage even before you remember that it's a hybrid!

 

[PacketPaul]

the only thing I have to do in urban commuting is tap the accelerator to resume from a stop and gently nudge the steering wheel.

Even easier … just press the Resume button on the steering wheel .