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Discussion Starter #1
I initially created this to determine what is the cost of charging my 2019 Model 3 Long Range RWD vs my 13 Accord LX and to see which charging option is cheapest. This is easily adjusted for the Insight by sticking in the Insight MPG instead of the Accord.

Assumptions and basis.

Insight EX has averaged 57 MPG over the last 3k miles but the purposes of this excercise I will use EPA Insight rating of 53 mpg.
Model 3 LR RWD has averaged .25 kWh/mi for 16k miles. Price of gas is $4.00/gal.

I am currently on a standard tiered plan with SCE and pay $.24 /kWH at SoCal tier 2 prices but calcs show the cost at other plans including time of use plans.

At Tier 2 prices the Model 3 is only 20% cheaper than the Insight. Costing $6.00 to charge at home for 100 miles of driving vs $7.55 in gas for the same distance. It is cheaper but not by a lot considering my Model 3 cost double the Insight.

If I switch to a time of use plan, then the Model 3 is 57% cheaper to fill up for the same distance traveled.

If I use Tesla Supercharger at a $0.32/kW rate, the Insight is 6% cheaper. States outside of California cost less to charge and less to buy gas in general.

I was expecting that my car could be fully charged with less than $10 bucks, but that is far from it. With a 75 kWh battery for 300 miles, the cost is $18. Cheaper than gas for sure but not dirt cheap, at least in California it's not dirt cheap. I met a guy from Corpus Christi Texas this weekend and he pays $0.08 / kWh from his co-op. That is dirt cheap. 300 miles for only $6.00 !!!!!

See my spreadsheet.
 

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I'll have to look at my energy bill, but with our gas being ~40% cheaper in upstate NY, I'd assume it's cheaper to "fuel" an Insight than charge a model 3. I know for a fact that even with expensive gas (2.69/gallon), I could easily drive well over 300 miles on the same $18 to charge the model 3.

Just for laughs, 87 Octane with 10% ethanol has the energy content of 32.78 kWh/gal, using your number of .25kWh/mile, the Tesla uses 13.25 kWh to travel 53 miles. Making the Tesla over twice as efficient from an energy standpoint as compared to the Insight which is not surprising in the least. They are two completely different markets, and the major advantages to the Insight is a)price, b) everyone can own one regardless of their housing situation.
 

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I know electric cars experience range loss in colder temps. Is it as much as our hybrid Insight?
 

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I know electric cars experience range loss in colder temps. Is it as much as our hybrid Insight?
AAA study showed electric range loss of ~40% in 20*F temperatures. - https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/02/cold-weather-reduces-electric-vehicle-range/

It's higher than hybrid fuel economy loss (~30%) and conventional gas economy loss (~15%) in similar cold weather and short-drive conditions, per the EPA article shared here - https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/26570-post71.html

The hybrid loss is roughly the average between the electric and conventional gas loss, which makes sense...
 

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I initially created this to determine what is the cost of charging my 2019 Model 3 Long Range RWD vs my 13 Accord LX and to see which charging option is cheapest. This is easily adjusted for the Insight by sticking in the Insight MPG instead of the Accord.
So is your only goal to minimize energy costs?

Cost of ownership? Taxes?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I initially created this to determine what is the cost of charging my 2019 Model 3 Long Range RWD vs my 13 Accord LX and to see which charging option is cheapest. This is easily adjusted for the Insight by sticking in the Insight MPG instead of the Accord.
So is your only goal to minimize energy costs?

Cost of ownership? Taxes?
My goal was to determine the cost difference of replacing my 13 Accord LX with a Model 3 Long Range RWD. For me to justify the cost I had to factor the tax incentives, taxes, insurance, and cost of fuel/energy and maintenance. As I get free Charging at work, I am able to get 350+ miles of free energy a week as I drive 500-600 miles a week.

So these gas vs charge calc was one component of my overall cost analysis and to determine the increased energy usage at my house and whether or not its worth to switch to a Time of Use rate plan.

In the end, I figured the Model 3 after 5 years would be somewhere between $29-31k. With a significant increase in Performance, comfort, tech and energy savings. I was looking at buying an Accord EX hybrid in 2020 which would have put me in the upper $20k range...
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I'll have to look at my energy bill, but with our gas being ~40% cheaper in upstate NY, I'd assume it's cheaper to "fuel" an Insight than charge a model 3. I know for a fact that even with expensive gas (2.69/gallon), I could easily drive well over 300 miles on the same $18 to charge the model 3.

Just for laughs, 87 Octane with 10% ethanol has the energy content of 32.78 kWh/gal, using your number of .25kWh/mile, the Tesla uses 13.25 kWh to travel 53 miles. Making the Tesla over twice as efficient from an energy standpoint as compared to the Insight which is not surprising in the least. They are two completely different markets, and the major advantages to the Insight is a)price, b) everyone can own one regardless of their housing situation.
Being Honda, the natural comparison would be Clarity EV to Insight. As the Clarity has 25.4 kWh battery and 83 mile range, this works out to .289 kWh/mi efficiency. Plugging it into my calc, at $0.24 / kWh electric cost, the Clarity is at parity with only a 1% cost difference with the Insight in cost of energy/fuel. However since the Clarity BEV is so cheap in CA... $179 / month with $1999 down coupled with $2500 state rebate and $1000 SCE rebate, the Clarity is much more cost effective than the Insight.

Interestingly, the efficiency of the Clarity is low compared to the Model 3, so there is cost advantage of Charging vs gas is quickly eroded in the Clarity.

Hopefully now that Honda is investigating in the Honda e, they can produce a much more efficient drivetrain, chassis, and battery.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I know electric cars experience range loss in colder temps. Is it as much as our hybrid Insight?
AAA study showed electric range loss of ~40% in 20*F temperatures. - https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/02/cold-weather-reduces-electric-vehicle-range/

It's higher than hybrid fuel economy loss (~30%) and conventional gas economy loss (~15%) in similar cold weather and short-drive conditions, per the EPA article shared here - https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/26570-post71.html

The hybrid loss is roughly the average between the electric and conventional gas loss, which makes sense...
Range loss in cold weather is real. I recently came back on a road trip in 30 and 40 degree temps with mountain driving with 5 passengers, heater blasting and luggage. I estimated a 30% range loss. For me this really put EVs in perspective as they are not ready to go 1on1 with ice cars. However the trips I've done would be nearly impossible or very difficult with Bolts, eTrons, i3, Clarity, Leaf and Taycan... Especially with Clarity as they can not span gaps of 90-100 miles of mountain driving without charging.

Now, I've taken the Model 3 on multiple road trips totalling approx 6k miles in the last 5 months, and even from SoCal to Montana and Wyoming even in 30-40 F weather of Montana, the Tesla was flawless because everything was plotted out. This last Roadtrip with no plan for charging and cold weather with mountains and full load... Was let's say, challenging.

Anyways.. I have yet another road trip coming up to Sequoia in the snow covered winter. The plan is to take the Insight.... As there is a charging gap at Sequoia.
 

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Being Honda, the natural comparison would be Clarity EV to Insight. As the Clarity has 25.4 kWh battery and 83 mile range, this works out to .289 kWh/mi efficiency. Plugging it into my calc, at $0.24 / kWh electric cost, the Clarity is at parity with only a 1% cost difference with the Insight in cost of energy/fuel. However since the Clarity BEV is so cheap in CA... $179 / month with $1999 down coupled with $2500 state rebate and $1000 SCE rebate, the Clarity is much more cost effective than the Insight.

Interestingly, the efficiency of the Clarity is low compared to the Model 3, so there is cost advantage of Charging vs gas is quickly eroded in the Clarity.

Hopefully now that Honda is investigating in the Honda e, they can produce a much more efficient drivetrain, chassis, and battery.
To be fair I was simply comparing the "cost" first paragraph in response to your point, and I explored energy usage in the second part, further showing that the Tesla is nearly 3 times as "efficient". I can't get any deals on a Clarity being outside of California, so the model is frankly dead to me.
 

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And the benefit of pure electric for someone in Northern Ontario with needing to run defroster/heater heavily for 5 months of the year diminishes even more.
Which is why the Insight is still my number one choice.
 

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This thread made me think a lot about battery technology and how efficient they are (or aren’t).


I didn’t think the cost of electricity for a Tesla would be so high, which makes me wonder about the people that currently buy electric cars mostly for the gas savings even know what they are getting into.

I can see why they would purchase the vehicle from a “whole package” standpoint (helping environment, less fluid changes (you still have to do brake fluid on electric vehicles), cool factor, optional complete self-driving hardware, etc.) but I was never sold on a Tesla.

Honestly, I would only be interested in a sub-30k and ~350 mile range EV from a Japanese manufacturer (whether or not they can pull that off anytime soon is highly questionable). If they do pull it off, please don’t make it look like a Nissan Leaf (even the new one).
 

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And the benefit of pure electric for someone in Northern Ontario with needing to run defroster/heater heavily for 5 months of the year diminishes even more.
Which is why the Insight is still my number one choice.
Bear with me for a moment, but what if the "pre-warming and defrosting" happens while still plugged into the charger, has to be nice to get in @ 100% charged, a toasty 72 degrees and ready to start the drive. (Not sure if this is currently an available feature).

Generally speaking we (Americans) drive quite a bit less during winter months, and unless you have a crazy commute or are doing something like Uber/Flex on your spare time the range loss probably wouldn't amount to any added anxiety.

The biggest Achilles heel to EV only vehicles is not having a garage, driveway or carport etc... high voltage and weather don't always mix well, although I'm sure the plugs are designed to be used outdoors, it's just not something I see as advantageous. The biggest caveat in the future of EV vehicles is going to be figuring out a way to service customers that don't have a driveway. Until cities have enough parking infrastructure (with charging capabilities), it's going to be tough as a nation to convert fully to EV.
 

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Bear with me for a moment, but what if the "pre-warming and defrosting" happens while still plugged into the charger, has to be nice to get in @ 100% charged, a toasty 72 degrees and ready to start the drive. (Not sure if this is currently an available feature).
Unfortunately, the coolant is used for heat/defrost, hence, the engine must be warmed-up.
 

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Unfortunately, the coolant is used for heat/defrost, hence, the engine must be warmed-up.
Was referring to the Tesla, still don't know why they didn't use electric heating in the Insight, so much quicker for heat, and no added strain to the motor in terms of getting up to operating temperature and reducing emissions.
 

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The biggest Achilles heel to EV only vehicles is not having a garage, driveway or carport etc... high voltage and weather don't always mix well, although I'm sure the plugs are designed to be used outdoors, it's just not something I see as advantageous. The biggest caveat in the future of EV vehicles is going to be figuring out a way to service customers that don't have a driveway. Until cities have enough parking infrastructure (with charging capabilities), it's going to be tough as a nation to convert fully to EV.
They can sort of solve this by extending the range to 500-600 miles. Even with the reduced range in the Winter I wouldn't mind going to a supercharger once every 2 weeks or so similar to how much I visit the gas station now.

Was referring to the Tesla, still don't know why they didn't use electric heating in the Insight, so much quicker for heat, and no added strain to the motor in terms of getting up to operating temperature and reducing emissions.
Maybe it will be really slow like the rear defroster compared to a full EV like Tesla?
 

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They can sort of solve this by extending the range to 500-600 miles. Even with the reduced range in the Winter I wouldn't mind going to a supercharger once every 2 weeks or so similar to how much I visit the gas station now.

Maybe it will be really slow like the rear defroster compared to a full EV like Tesla?
Electric heat employed in gas cars is instantaneous (full heat in just a few seconds) so no reason it couldn't be as effective in a hybrid; whereas defrosters generally heat slower to prevent damaging the glass they are embedded in.

As Ironqqq mentioned, you can only utilize a supercharger at full current a limited number of times, so just something to consider, a stage 2 charger I believe takes almost 8 hours to charge, so you could plan it around shopping or some other activity as needed. Leads back to infrastructure, if you could pay for a space in a parking garage, that included the cost of charging, and they were centrally located, or at least mass transit accessible, it opens up the possibilities of EV ownership for renters that don't have access to a parking space, or "at home" charging due to lease restrictions (and/or availability of the correct electrical to even install a charger). I wouldn't be surprised if over the next decade we see something like this in smaller cities around America. Kind of like a park & ride works now, except you get the charging, designated spot, and mass transit ticket for one monthly fee.
 

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Electric heat employed in gas cars is instantaneous (full heat in just a few seconds) so no reason it couldn't be as effective in a hybrid; whereas defrosters generally heat slower to prevent damaging the glass they are embedded in.

As Ironqqq mentioned, you can only utilize a supercharger at full current a limited number of times, so just something to consider, a stage 2 charger I believe takes almost 8 hours to charge, so you could plan it around shopping or some other activity as needed. Leads back to infrastructure, if you could pay for a space in a parking garage, that included the cost of charging, and they were centrally located, or at least mass transit accessible, it opens up the possibilities of EV ownership for renters that don't have access to a parking space, or "at home" charging due to lease restrictions (and/or availability of the correct electrical to even install a charger). I wouldn't be surprised if over the next decade we see something like this in smaller cities around America. Kind of like a park & ride works now, except you get the charging, designated spot, and mass transit ticket for one monthly fee.
Okay, that makes sense. Maybe the other reason is Honda thinks it's less efficient to heat the car with the battery?


Was hoping I would get at least level 2 charging speeds forever if I used up all my level 3 charge cycles. 8 hours is still a long time...:sad:
 

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Okay, that makes sense. Maybe the other reason is Honda thinks it's less efficient to heat the car with the battery?


Was hoping I would get at least level 2 charging speeds forever if I used up all my level 3 charge cycles. 8 hours is still a long time...:sad:
I'm far from well versed on Tesla, I do believe that level 2 charging is acceptable an unlimited number of times.
 

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This thread made me think a lot about battery technology and how efficient they are (or aren’t).


I didn’t think the cost of electricity for a Tesla would be so high, which makes me wonder about the people that currently buy electric cars mostly for the gas savings even know what they are getting into.

I can see why they would purchase the vehicle from a “whole package” standpoint (helping environment, less fluid changes (you still have to do brake fluid on electric vehicles), cool factor, optional complete self-driving hardware, etc.) but I was never sold on a Tesla.

Honestly, I would only be interested in a sub-30k and ~350 mile range EV from a Japanese manufacturer (whether or not they can pull that off anytime soon is highly questionable). If they do pull it off, please don’t make it look like a Nissan Leaf (even the new one).

You're last paragraph summed It up for me. ~350 to ~450 Mile Range and sub-$30k is what I'm waiting for. I wouldn't mine if it had a small ICE gas motor just in case of emergency.

The new 2020 Toyota RAV4 hybrid looks decent at 305hp & 98 miles combined mpg
 

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Discussion Starter #20
This thread made me think a lot about battery technology and how efficient they are (or aren’t).

I didn’t think the cost of electricity for a Tesla would be so high, which makes me wonder about the people that currently buy electric cars mostly for the gas savings even know what they are getting into.

I can see why they would purchase the vehicle from a “whole package” standpoint (helping environment, less fluid changes (you still have to do brake fluid on electric vehicles), cool factor, optional complete self-driving hardware, etc.) but I was never sold on a Tesla.
I'm not on a time of use electrical plan. If I switched to a TOU plan, I could charge off peak at $0.13 / kWh. This would significantly lower the charging cost. I haven't done the math and looked at my household consumption history to see if I would save money on overall by doing so.

It's been 2 months since my initial post and a couple of things have come to Light.

1. Solar - I'm thinking about solar right now in sunny socal. With incentives my cost to charge will be zero after the payback period, which appears to be rather quick. Sounds too good to be true.... Though. Will look more into it by end of spring.

2. There are other benefits other than fuel/energy savings by going electric. Noise pollution. Especially in urban settings where it can be non-stop.

For example... two recent cities I've visited. London buses are switching to hybrid and I was sooooo impressed by the comfort and noise reduction riding in them. Hong Kong noise pollution is constant from noisy diesel buses, from morning to night. City Buses are low speed so the majority of noise is engine noise and not road noise. Going to electric or hybrid will improve the environment for everyone, not just the passengers.

Air quality. I hate breathing in exhaust at street level whether I'm walking on a street, in a parking lot, or random exhaust wafting into my house. I'm also a cyclist and breathing in exhaust just plain horrible.

3. Relative vehicle efficiency can be quite easy to compare. Go to https://www.fueleconomy.gov/ and one can easily compare MPGe. So compare 53 mpg of Insight vs 136 MPGe for Model 3 LR RWD.

For overall efficiency... energy to extract and refine oil vs energy for electrical generation to vehicle efficiency is a bit more complex. I started working on this but have not finished.

Honestly, I would only be interested in a sub-30k and ~350 mile range EV from a Japanese manufacturer (whether or not they can pull that off anytime soon is highly questionable). If they do pull it off, please don’t make it look like a Nissan Leaf (even the new one)
Hey I never thought I would buy an American car that wasn't a truck! You might buy a great ev that's not Japanese!

A great EV that is under $30k with 350 mi range... There's quite a bit before we get there. The Chevy Bolt is basically $28k as GM is still giving huge $7-8k incentives, but is it a great car that can hold its own at $28k? Against a $28k Accord? The Teslas are holding their own as great cars, outsell equally priced BMWs and Mercedes by huge margins.

After 20k miles in 7 months, I feel what makes Tesla owners so fanatic is the driving experience. Until someone can challenge Tesla on driving experience they will remain king even if someone makes a cheaper and longer range EV.

The Chevy Bolt is a great example at $28k vs a $39k Model 3 SR+. Chevy has longer range and cheaper price, but no one is flocking to buy it.

Almost every non Tesla electric car out there is just a gas car with a electric power train that saddled by the way they have made and operated cars for decades.

Even if someone put out a 350 mi range car for under $30k, they still could not complete against much more expensive Tesla. Range and cost is not everything

If there is another EV company I would bet to have successful mass market EVs, it would be VW.

The Honda e looks sooooooo cool... But unfortunately it will not be for North America.
 
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