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Discussion Starter #1
For me, since it is a very low occurrence, it doesn’t bother me that much..but when it comes to safety, we want our technology to be perfect..perhaps a software update from Honda in the future..

In my first few weeks with this car, there are so many things I want to tweet and hack..if the car sticks around (which I hope it does with this redesign), hopefully there will be people doing such..
 

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For me, since it is a very low occurrence, it doesn’t bother me that much..but when it comes to safety, we want our technology to be perfect..perhaps a software update from Honda in the future..

In my first few weeks with this car, there are so many things I want to tweet and hack..if the car sticks around (which I hope it does with this redesign), hopefully there will be people doing such..
As for updates? I'm thinking this is generally going to be a no. The more I deal with Honda, and I have had at least one long talk with Honda corporation concerning this, the more its impressed upon me that Honda wont be doing much updating on these systems in current models, rather, they will probably be releasing overall updates with each model year of car. I think the cost of these updates may be more prohibitive than we know, and the feasability even less possible than we previously thought possible. After talking with Adam (my current stereo and upgrade guru), even tweaks which seem simple in idea, are actually not only expensive to partake, but are, many times, impossible to do because of technical limitations in the car. As a simple example, many items in the car, which I thought were just simple buttons, are actually more like data lines to various computers in the car. What I thought was merely a simple redirecting of electricity, is actually a button controlled by data pulses and powered (literally) by computer commands. This makes something that looks rather inocuous to change, in reality, a overly complex clusterf**k. I really think a lot of the problems we think are easy to solve are actually very expensive, and quite honestly, just not worth Honda's time, expense, or may just not be possible to fix without a massive redesign or replacement of some system elements. Holy moly! That entire paragraph was a mouthful!🤔
 

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As for updates? I'm thinking this is generally going to be a no. The more I deal with Honda, and I have had at least one long talk with Honda corporation concerning this, the more its impressed upon me that Honda wont be doing much updating on these systems in current models, rather, they will probably be releasing overall updates with each model year of car. I think the cost of these updates may be more prohibitive than we know, and the feasability even less possible than we previously thought possible.
Honda's "planned obsolescence" approach has definitely been my experience so far. They'd prefer you to buy the new model, rather than give you upgrades to the old model. This kind of works for physical accessories and changes, but doesn't translate well to safety-related technology features.

Some manufacturers like Toyota seem more benevolent, with the recent example of offering CarPlay as a retrofit to 2018 Camrys and 2018 Siennas for a fee. It's not free, but at least it's available/offered...
https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/129-2019-honda-insight-versus-competition/3328-edmunds-2020-insight-vs-2020-corolla-hybrid-9-11-19-a.html

The one hope I hold out is that there might be benefit to Honda to keep their safety systems as consistent and updated as possible. If they realize that maintaining/troubleshooting a single system design is easier (and safer) than separate manuals/guides for each generation of Honda Sensing, maybe updates to prior models can happen!

But I'm not holding my breath...
 

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As for updates? I'm thinking this is generally going to be a no. The more I deal with Honda, and I have had at least one long talk with Honda corporation concerning this, the more its impressed upon me that Honda wont be doing much updating on these systems in current models, rather, they will probably be releasing overall updates with each model year of car. I think the cost of these updates may be more prohibitive than we know, and the feasability even less possible than we previously thought possible. After talking with Adam (my current stereo and upgrade guru), even tweaks which seem simple in idea, are actually not only expensive to partake, but are, many times, impossible to do because of technical limitations in the car. As a simple example, many items in the car, which I thought were just simple buttons, are actually more like data lines to various computers in the car. What I thought was merely a simple redirecting of electricity, is actually a button controlled by data pulses and powered (literally) by computer commands. This makes something that looks rather inocuous to change, in reality, a overly complex clusterf**k. I really think a lot of the problems we think are easy to solve are actually very expensive, and quite honestly, just not worth Honda's time, expense, or may just not be possible to fix without a massive redesign or replacement of some system elements. Holy moly! That entire paragraph was a mouthful!🤔
Can anyone else hear Verier's actual voice (with the sarcasm)?? Lol!! You crack me up.. Keep posting the videos.. You are right.. There are several systems in all new cars - and it's scary.. Even older cars have several systems in them. There are high speed data bus lines on our cars, and low speed data bus lines. Our cars have two master brake cylinders, a strange little 12 volt battery - and finicky sensors that do not always work correctly.. Hope it holds together for 10 years lol.
 

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I'm sure that this depends highly on whether the updates are software or hardware based. Honda would be smart to offer an upgrade for a nominal fee if it's software based. They may take some flack for a fee, but they could roll it into their premium Honda software offerings, much like a subscription. I know I don't use the Honda app, or pay for it, but if it included regular updates, even if a early access basis, it would make the app worth taking a second look at.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Just wait until someone crashes and blames the brake warning..(someone had to bring it up, I guess it shall be me..)
 

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Just wait until someone crashes and blames the brake warning..(someone had to bring it up, I guess it shall be me..)
Honda makes CYA statements in manual to fall back on and prevent legal action, whether the brake alert is real or false-positive:
"The CMBS is designed to reduce the severity of an unavoidable collision. It does not prevent a collision nor stop the vehicle automatically. It is still your responsibility to operate the brake pedal and steering wheel appropriately according to the driving conditions."
 

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Discussion Starter #9
If Honda is able to perfect this technology in future models, I think the software and/or hardware (if necessary) updates should be available for free.

We can imagine someone getting into an accident from this mis-trigger.

From a legal standpoint, Honda is off the hook but from a public relations and reputation standpoint, it could mean a disaster.

I don’t know why, but i have this feeling that Honda almost rushed production of the 3rd gen Insight without perfecting this safety technology (which I suspect they weren’t able to perfect at time of production).

Maybe I’m just too much of a perfectionist that I wanted it to be perfect.


One of the reasons why I switched from PC to Mac (but that’s a different story).
 

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I don’t know why, but i have this feeling that Honda almost rushed production of the 3rd gen Insight without perfecting this safety technology (which I suspect they weren’t able to perfect at time of production).
There may be a nugget of truth to the concept of rushing. Honda Sensing came standard on the 2019 Insight, and became standard on the 2019 Civic (same platform). But I have the impression that Honda believes this version of Sensing is the best they can deliver, since it's now included as a standard feature on their #1 selling model / Civic.
 

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The safety technology in the Insight is shared with other Hondas that came before it. Honda Sense used to be exclusive to the highest trim when it was first introduced a few years ago. Some automakers still require you to buy a top trim level to get similar safety features. It will be a standard for all cars sold starting 2022. Honda Sense is just off the shelf safety tech from BOSCH as a stopgap measure. Honda partnered with Cruise for autonomous cars so I doubt they will invest more money into driver assist tech.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I would really like to be able to upgrade (possibly even for free or small fee) the Honda Sensing technology when it gets better..

Yesterday, during day time, I was changing lanes and my car was about 60-70% in lane and my front bumper was almost entirely behind car in front of me when it made a sudden right turn into a gas station..

One of the gas station’s entrance is real close to a right turn lane of an intersection. When I was getting into furthest right lane to make that right turn, the car in front of me turned into that gas station. I don’t remember the exact circumstances of the situation but I took my eyes off the car making that turn for a bit and came real close to hitting it without the brake warning like coming on when switching lanes.

I was SO angry after that. I would say for me, 80-85% (possibly higher) of the brake warnings really never helped me prevent an accident.

I’m not sure if it was because I wasn’t directly behind the car or not but I think I should of gotten a warning.

Pretty soon after that incident, a car in front of me was right turning into a parking lot and I could’ve sworn the brake warning came on as it was already in it’s turning motion (which would suggest all of car was not completely behind me) , which was kinda of like the incident in subject matter. Although I was following car for a bit before the warning came on ( which possibly figures into how Honda Sense works ).

I could see this technology really coming into play if a car cuts you off unexpectedly and you need to hit the brakes. If Honda Sense works in a way where a vehicle has to be in front of you for a certain period of time before it can trigger the brake warning, then that obviously needs to be “adjusted”.
 

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There's some precedent from other manufacturers for offering to retrofit features like CarPlay, but Honda has had a "no backfit" standard for as long as they've been in operation. - https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/25896-post12.html

It also gets a little tricky with upgrades to safety/sensing, as improvements are both equipment and programming/software. Manufacturers tend to design for future, rather than looking back to ensure it fits with past models.

Also out of curiosity, what setting (normal, short, long) are you set at for the Forward Collision Warning Distance (OM p379)?
 

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I pretend I don't have Honda Sense when I drive so I don't get too comfortable about not paying attention. I don't think Honda will provide us hardware upgrades when they actually want you to buy a new car. It's a lot of work too because they have to integrate new software not just hardware and also pay the government to reevaluate the safety systems again.

A front wide view camera which covers a wide area in front of the vehicle will be newly added to the Honda SENSING advanced safety and driver-assistive system installed to the all-new Fit. By combining the front wide view camera and eight sonar sensors mounted in the front and back of the vehicle, the all-new Fit features further enhanced existing Honda SENSING functions as well as the new short-distance collision mitigation braking system. The Honda SENSING is available as standard equipment on all types of the all-new Fit.
Honda Sense on the 4th gen Fit is getting a wider FOV camera and 8 sonar sensors.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I’m on long range...

I’m already an extra careful/super safe driver because I’m on the road so much (plus I got to watch out for my passengers) but was expecting the Honda Sense to warn me on those times when I slipped up a bit. But at least the auto high beams seem to have helped a lot in certain areas (which is the feature I like the most in Honda Sense ).
 

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Discussion Starter #16
When I was involved with the s2000 (which btw was also sorta limited and a rare vehicle), there were shops in SoCal that specialized in them. They were manufacturing better TCTs than OEM ( timing chain tensioner , which was a weak point on the s2k ), retrofitting newer s2k engine,mechanical, and even body parts to older cars (which I did) to improve performance, reliability, and looks.

I think if this car was as big as the Prius, we would have people possibly trying to retrofit the future hardware and trying to upgrade the software.

I like the rare car factor but as far as people toying with the car, there obviously will be less than say the Prius crowd (which is an advantage for a Prius owner).

But we will have to see what the 3rd gen Insight’s future has in store.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I was just re-thinking this and since Honda Sense is fairly new and it’s on most newer Hondas now, there may be some mechanics and enthusiasts that will try to tweak it. So it’s not necessarily an Insight and rarity factor anymore because I suspect if Honda Sensing can be tweaked in a Civic, the same can be done across models with it.
 

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I would really like to be able to upgrade (possibly even for free or small fee) the Honda Sensing technology when it gets better..

Yesterday, during day time, I was changing lanes and my car was about 60-70% in lane and my front bumper was almost entirely behind car in front of me when it made a sudden right turn into a gas station..

One of the gas station’s entrance is real close to a right turn lane of an intersection. When I was getting into furthest right lane to make that right turn, the car in front of me turned into that gas station. I don’t remember the exact circumstances of the situation but I took my eyes off the car making that turn for a bit and came real close to hitting it without the brake warning like coming on when switching lanes.

I was SO angry after that. I would say for me, 80-85% (possibly higher) of the brake warnings really never helped me prevent an accident.

I’m not sure if it was because I wasn’t directly behind the car or not but I think I should of gotten a warning.

Pretty soon after that incident, a car in front of me was right turning into a parking lot and I could’ve sworn the brake warning came on as it was already in it’s turning motion (which would suggest all of car was not completely behind me) , which was kinda of like the incident in subject matter. Although I was following car for a bit before the warning came on ( which possibly figures into how Honda Sense works ).

I could see this technology really coming into play if a car cuts you off unexpectedly and you need to hit the brakes. If Honda Sense works in a way where a vehicle has to be in front of you for a certain period of time before it can trigger the brake warning, then that obviously needs to be “adjusted”.
The system works by sending out a radar signal from an antenna located facing front from behind your inside rear view mirror. The return signal is picked up near the ground in the very front of the car on the left side, roughly in line with the steering wheel.

Perhaps:
1. All this happened too far in front of the car to trigger the brakes / notification? If so there is an adjustment in Settings that allows you to make the system more sensitive.
2. Movement of the car in front to the right was so fast, that there was an insufficient radar return, close to the ground, to activate the system.

In general the system is I think a step toward the self driving car, and your experience could be important real life experience in support of the evolution of self-driving electronic systems. In the interim I think it best to avoid relying on these electronic systems and to remain an alert responsible controller of these amazing mechanical / electronic machines, known as a car. I however remain an old school advocate of driver-driving cars. So as long as those damm.things have an off button, I'm OK with them.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
my prediction with this technology is Honda will move fast to improve it as I don’t think they want a million of their cars having brake warning errors in inopportune times and causing accidents and getting tons of complaints from customers.. this technology , I think , can really hurt their bottom line, if not image, if not improved quickly.
 

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my prediction with this technology is Honda will move fast to improve it as I don’t think they want a million of their cars having brake warning errors in inopportune times and causing accidents and getting tons of complaints from customers.. this technology , I think , can really hurt their bottom line, if not image, if not improved quickly.
I think Honda will only move as fast as the rest of the mainstream market (ex Tesla). They've chosen to outsource Honda Sensing rather than develop it in-house, and their technology is currently off-the-shelf version from Bosch. There's liability in being new/first and/or developing in-house own technology, and it would be a departure from Honda's design choices so far and their history of being a (relatively) conservative innovation company.

But I agree that if/when Honda Sensing gets an upgrade, it would be ideal if Honda makes it available to prior model years... both software and hardware.
 
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