Potential damage from simultaneous brake and accelerator use?

4659 Views 15 Replies 6 Participants Last post by sEXzNsite, Apr 14, 2019

Wolverine51

Discussion Starter · Jan 24, 2019

Is there something unique about the 2019 Insight transmission that makes it particularly susceptible to severe damage if the foot brake and accelerator pedals are engaged at the same time ?

The Owners Manual certainly suggests that this is the case

Being a lifelong left-foot braker, I am quite concerned about this

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insightfully

· #2 · Jan 24, 2019

To confirm, are you referring to the "notice" on p541 of Insight Owners Manual that reads: "The following can damage the driveline: 1) Depressing the accelerator and brake pedals simultaneously 2) Changing to P before the vehicle stops completely." - ?

I was curious on whether this mention by Honda was a "hybrid thing" or an "all Honda" thing, and skimmed the owners manuals for the Clarity, Accord Hybrid, Accord, and Civic. All of the Honda sedan manuals have the SAME notice worded in the same way, regardless of hybrid or traditional gasoline model (Clarity = p447 / Accord Hybrid = p548 / Accord = p581 / Civic = p500).

I think Honda is generally advising that applying the brake and throttle at the same time is hard on the car, causing extra strain on the transmission and brakes in particular. For a hybrid, there's the added complexity that the brakes are tied to regeneration and battery charging, so it seems like there's higher risk involved.

Wolverine51

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jan 24, 2019

Yes Insightfully, that's the notice I have in mind.

I previously owned 2014 and 2016 Civics, and I don't recall seeing that same notice regarding them.

Apparently my driving habits never caused them any harm that I know of.

I don't "ride my brake", but I can bet I have occasional brief instances of simultaneous use of brake and accelerator pedals. Do you suppose that is enough to do any damage ?

Your dedication to this forum is much appreciated. You are a wizard at combing the manuals for sure !!

insightfully

· #4 · Jan 24, 2019

I enjoy the dialogue with others and the opportunity to learn about this cool new car! I’m not a mechanic (but I play one on TV... J/K), so can’t accurately comment on extent of potential damage. But if Honda is flagging the risk in all their manuals, I think it’s worth trying to avoid as much as possible.

I know Honda made “brake override” standard on all cars starting 2011/2012, calling it “Brake Priority Logic.” The logic allows the brake pedal to override the accelerator if both are pressed at the same time, and addresses the safety risk of a stuck accelerator pedal. It seems like this logic disengages the transmission if both pedals are pressed accidentally or ‘occasionally’ as you mentioned. I think the risk for damage depends on how quickly the logic kicks in; any lag in the logic could mean cumulative damage over time.

I also just noticed that the INSIGHT, ACC HYBRID, and CLARITY owners manuals mention risk for “driveline damage” rather than “transmission damage” mentioned in the ACCORD and CIVIC manuals. I think the wording difference is intentional and based on operational and programming/design differences in the model groups. The driveline (i.e. everything after the transmission, like axles, wheels, joints) is technically separate from the engine and transmission.

===
P.S. - the notice for the 2016 Civic Sedan online manual is on p467, and for the 2014 Civic Sedan online manual on p341. Also for completeness, the model years I cross-checked for each online car manual were the 2018 Clarity PHEV, 2018 Accord Hybrid, 2018 Accord, and 2018 Civic Sedan.

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hasarad

· #5 · Jan 25, 2019

With the technology in the Insight, I would think pressing the accelerator and brake at the same time would take a screenshot of the dashboard display.

Reactions: 1

Wolverine51

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jan 25, 2019

That could be, but you would never be able to find the snapshot using the current Owners Manual

hasarad

· #7 · Jan 26, 2019

Wolverine51 said:
That could be, but you would never be able to find the snapshot using the current Owners Manual

... and a system update would wipe out your saved photos.

Wolverine51

Discussion Starter · #8 · Apr 2, 2019

Here's what is probably an easy question for some of you:

If you use your paddles for some downhill regenerative braking, and the regenerative breaking is still engaged when you are back on level ground (or going uphill), isn't that breaking causing the Insight to use more gas than it would without the breaking?

Verdier

· #9 · Apr 2, 2019

Wolverine51 said:
Here's what is probably an easy question for some of you:

If you use your paddles for some downhill regenerative braking, and the regenerative breaking is still engaged when you are back on level ground (or going uphill), isn't that breaking causing the Insight to use more gas than it would without the breaking?

I would say no since the car disengages braking while the gas is depressed. Consider the fact the car always engages regen braking Everytime you let your foot off the gas anyway regardless of using the paddles or not. The only thing the paddles do is increase regen amount for a short period of time that you choose to use it. The effect you're concerned about could probably be achieved by riding your brakes while driving which would entail you actively pressing the brake and gas at the same time and depending on how hard you press your brake that would determine the drag. In most cases the brakes will overpower the gas and you won't move. Hence some people do burnouts like this.

Wolverine51

Discussion Starter · #10 · Apr 2, 2019 (Edited)

If I accidentally push brake and accelerator pedals at same time, while sitting at rest, Insight will not respond at all

Instead I get a dashboard message saying to use brake only and restart the car (I believe that is what it said)

Thanks Verdier for your reply (and for not reminding me that I should be saying brake, not break)

insightfully

· #11 · Apr 2, 2019

Wolverine51 said:
If I accidentally push brake and accelerator pedals at same time, while sitting at rest, Insight will not respond at all

Instead I get a dashboard message saying to use brake only and restart the car (I believe that is what it said)

Honda made “brake override” standard on all cars starting 11/12, called "Brake Priority Logic." The brake pedal overrides the accelerator if both are pressed at the same time, as a safety feature in case of a stuck accelerator pedal. The transmission is disengaged if both pedals are pressed together accidentally.

Simultaneous brake/accelerator use: https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/7...amage-simultaneous-brake-accelerator-use.html

Reactions: 1

insightfully

· #12 · Apr 2, 2019

Wolverine51 said:
If you use your paddles for some downhill regenerative braking, and the regenerative breaking is still engaged when you are back on level ground (or going uphill), isn't that breaking causing the Insight to use more gas than it would without the breaking?

More gas would be used (versus normal driving) to counteract the regen effect, but 1) some of the energy gets banked into the high voltage battery for later so isn't a total waste, and 2) I think the inefficiency is why Honda designed regen to 'turn off' when the gas pedal is pressed in Econ and Normal modes. And even in Sport mode where the regen setting stays on, the regen effect ends once you step on the gas, as Verdier mentioned.

Keep in mind that initial use of the foot brake goes toward regen rather than traditional friction braking. (The transition from regen to friction brakes kicks in only below 5-10 mph.) So the foot brake is another way to get regen even without the paddles. It's a good option while in Econ or Normal, when the regen setting doesn't stay on. I got sold on 'dragging the brakes' after seeing this drive/review video, and knowing that Honda's design doesn't use the friction brakes until lower speeds.

gremal

· #13 · Apr 3, 2019

In my experience, the use of the paddle to create more resistance is negated when you accelerate with the gas peddle. You can actually see the bars showing resistance disappear in the dashboard display after you come to a stop and/or start to accelerate.

hasarad

· #14 · Apr 3, 2019

insightfully said:
Honda made “brake override” standard on all cars starting 11/12, called "Brake Priority Logic." The brake pedal overrides the accelerator if both are pressed at the same time, as a safety feature in case of a stuck accelerator pedal. The transmission is disengaged if both pedals are pressed together accidentally.

Simultaneous brake/accelerator use: https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/7...amage-simultaneous-brake-accelerator-use.html

I tried pressing the gas and brake at the same time. It took a screenshot. Those Honda guys thought of everything. :grin:

Reactions: 1

insightfully

· #15 · Apr 3, 2019

hasarad said:
I tried pressing the gas and brake at the same time. It took a screenshot. Those Honda guys thought of everything. :grin:

I was about to ask you to post the screenshot... and THEN I caught on to your joke. Ha!

sEXzNsite

· #16 · Apr 14, 2019

insightfully said:
I was about to ask you to post the screenshot... and THEN I caught on to your joke. Ha!

:smile_big: hahaha I was just going to ask the same question about the screen shot!

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