[Moviemike]

Does it seems "odd" that Honda, with all the testing they must do, would release a car with an Econ mode that is not the most efficient operation possible? I had never considered this before reading this thread. Would love to know Honda's methodology but for now I think I will change my default from ECON to NORMAL and see what happens!

I agree, it is odd!! Given Phil's testing, and Insightfully's report of higher mpg with Normal I did some testing myself today.

My goal in this test is to get the driver's inputs out of the calculations as much as possible. I did this by running the tests on 101 South of Coos Bay. Its 4 lane, light traffic, speed limit 50 mph. I began the test from a stand still and by turning the car on, to allow for a re-boot of the electronics. Outside temperature was 57. The first run was with ECON on. I accelerated at a steady pace with the power pointer right on the line between the blue and gray areas on the meter. At 50 mph I switched on ACC and just let the car do what it'll do. At the start of the run the state of charge (soc) showed 4 bars. While accelerating the soc dropped to 2 bars, then as I cruised the soc slowly built up to 8 bars, then the green EV light came on and stayed on till the soc drained down to 3 bars at which point the EV light went dark. I drove 5.1 miles stopped turned around and went back to my starting point. As I passed my starting point the "Current Drive" reported 54.5 mpg.

The second run was with ECON off, (i.e. Normal). Again beginning with the car at a stand still and the electronics rebooted I accelerated at the blue/gray line rate. The soc was 4 bars at the start and drained down to 3 bars before slowly increasing to 7 bars before EV came on. Again with ACC set to 50 mph I drove to the same turn around point. Upon return to the starting point I passed it with 58.1 mpg on the "Current Drive."

Again while seeking an explanation as to why the decrease, it occurred to me that it may be warmer during the second run.

So I decided to try a 3rd run with ECON on. Temp. was 60. Same process as above, 4 bars soc to start, blue/gray acceleration, 2 bars to cruising speed. This time upon my return "Current Drive" showed 57.2 as I approached the starting point then changed to 58.2 !!

Then I went to lunch. It was looking like temperature differences were the source of the higher mpg with Normal. But the more sources of error I found in the above numbers the dissatisfied I became. Thinking that a longer run would help with accuracy.

So I decided on two more runs same initial and testing conditions, but of longer distance. The 4th run began with temp. at 64, and ECON on. Again a swing from 2 to 8 bars before EV light came on. For the last 3 miles before returning to the starting point I watched the soc movements. It constantly varied from 3 to 5 bars. Again this is with ACC at 50 mph. What it would do is run with EV light on while at 5 bars. Then drain down to 3 bars, where the EV would darken. Then slowly increase to 5 bars, when EV would come on again, and then recycle as above. This longer run was a total of 21.9 miles round trip. I passed the starting point "Current Drive" at 60.3 mpg.

The 4th run was again the same initial conditions. Temp. again at 64, but ECON off. Same 2 -8 bars from reboot / standing start to cruise. Same 3-5 bars during last 3 miles before starting point. "Current Drive" was 60.3 as I approached the starting point and changed to 60.5 on the far side of the ("finish") line.

Summary:
10 mile round trip:
ECON on: 54.5 temp. 57.
ECON off: 58.1 temp. ?
ECON on: 58.2 temp. 60

21.9 mile round trip:
ECON on: 60.3 temp 64
ECON off 60.3 temp 64

I think engine temperature has to be a really important factor. After all the engine is going to cool down during a long EV run (especially if its really cold outside), perhaps requiring a warm up process (including an above 5 bars soc) before the system returns to peak efficiency.

I searched through the Honda News Press Kit and couldn't find anything on ECON functioning. In the on-line owners manual page 467 regarding ECON Mode it says: "The ECON mode helps you improve your fuel economy by adjusting the performance of the climate control system and the accelerator pedal response."

I look forward to further real world testing to discover why people get better mpg in Normal than Econ.

 

[andrew28]

I agree, it is odd!! Given Phil's testing, and Insightfully's report of higher mpg with Normal I did some testing myself today.

My goal in this test is to get the driver's inputs out of the calculations as much as possible. I did this by running the tests on 101 South of Coos Bay. Its 4 lane, light traffic, speed limit 50 mph. I began the test from a stand still and by turning the car on, to allow for a re-boot of the electronics. Outside temperature was 57. The first run was with ECON on. I accelerated at a steady pace with the power pointer right on the line between the blue and gray areas on the meter. At 50 mph I switched on ACC and just let the car do what it'll do. At the start of the run the state of charge (soc) showed 4 bars. While accelerating the soc dropped to 2 bars, then as I cruised the soc slowly built up to 8 bars, then the green EV light came on and stayed on till the soc drained down to 3 bars at which point the EV light went dark. I drove 5.1 miles stopped turned around and went back to my starting point. As I passed my starting point the "Current Drive" reported 54.5 mpg.

The second run was with ECON off, (i.e. Normal). Again beginning with the car at a stand still and the electronics rebooted I accelerated at the blue/gray line rate. The soc was 4 bars at the start and drained down to 3 bars before slowly increasing to 7 bars before EV came on. Again with ACC set to 50 mph I drove to the same turn around point. Upon return to the starting point I passed it with 58.1 mpg on the "Current Drive."

Again while seeking an explanation as to why the decrease, it occurred to me that it may be warmer during the second run.

So I decided to try a 3rd run with ECON on. Temp. was 60. Same process as above, 4 bars soc to start, blue/gray acceleration, 2 bars to cruising speed. This time upon my return "Current Drive" showed 57.2 as I approached the starting point then changed to 58.2 !!

Then I went to lunch. It was looking like temperature differences were the source of the higher mpg with Normal. But the more sources of error I found in the above numbers the dissatisfied I became. Thinking that a longer run would help with accuracy.

So I decided on two more runs same initial and testing conditions, but of longer distance. The 4th run began with temp. at 64, and ECON on. Again a swing from 2 to 8 bars before EV light came on. For the last 3 miles before returning to the starting point I watched the soc movements. It constantly varied from 3 to 5 bars. Again this is with ACC at 50 mph. What it would do is run with EV light on while at 5 bars. Then drain down to 3 bars, where the EV would darken. Then slowly increase to 5 bars, when EV would come on again, and then recycle as above. This longer run was a total of 21.9 miles round trip. I passed the starting point "Current Drive" at 60.3 mpg.

The 4th run was again the same initial conditions. Temp. again at 64, but ECON off. Same 2 -8 bars from reboot / standing start to cruise. Same 3-5 bars during last 3 miles before starting point. "Current Drive" was 60.3 as I approached the starting point and changed to 60.5 on the far side of the ("finish") line.

Summary:
10 mile round trip:
ECON on: 54.5 temp. 57.
ECON off: 58.1 temp. ?
ECON on: 58.2 temp. 60

21.9 mile round trip:
ECON on: 60.3 temp 64
ECON off 60.3 temp 64

I think engine temperature has to be a really important factor. After all the engine is going to cool down during a long EV run (especially if its really cold outside), perhaps requiring a warm up process (including an above 5 bars soc) before the system returns to peak efficiency.

I searched through the Honda News Press Kit and couldn't find anything on ECON functioning. In the on-line owners manual page 467 regarding ECON Mode it says: "The ECON mode helps you improve your fuel economy by adjusting the performance of the climate control system and the accelerator pedal response."

I look forward to further real world testing to discover why people get better mpg in Normal than Econ.

"When your vehicle is in cruise control, the Econ mode restricts its ability to shift down a gear, greatly reducing its energy use. https://www.hondadealersofnewengland.com/when-to-use-honda-econ-button/"

In a gas car Honda has said econ mode will have a different effect on cruise control. Does the cruise control ignore econ mode in a hybrid though(Insight doesn't have a transmission that shift gears)? If we're just going by what the Insight manual states, it seems like econ mode only adjust climate control system, since pedal response shouldn't affect cruise control. Would be interesting to see the test being done with no cruise control.

 

[Moviemike]

In a gas car Honda has said econ mode will have a different effect on cruise control. Does the cruise control ignore econ mode in a hybrid though(Insight doesn't have a transmission that shift gears)? If we're just going by what the Insight manual states, it seems like econ mode only adjust climate control system, since pedal response shouldn't affect cruise control. Would be interesting to see the test being done with no cruise control.

Interesting thought !

The terrain where I did the test runs was rolling hills. Up and down up and down. Lots of small hills, very steep for short distances. I thought this road would stress the system and give it lots of charging and discharging opportunities especially on the 21 mile runs. On the steeper up grades both ECON and Normal aggressively charged up those hills, putting the power pointer well into the middle of the gray zone. Climate control system was off during all tests.

Interesting link though. I'd like to know of any technical foundation for what they say beyond the effects of pedal travel.

Here are related excerpts from the Press Kit:
"Insight drivers can also choose ECON or SPORT modes. ECON alters throttle inputs to help optimize fuel efficiency. SPORT provides more aggressive throttle inputs while drawing more on the battery for a more energetic acceleration feel. Additionally, SPORT alters the Active Sound Control (ASC) for a more aggressive engine note. 


.......

Drive-by-Wire Throttle System with "Click" Operation 

Insight's Drive-by-Wire throttle system replaces a conventional throttle cable with smart electronics that "connect" the accelerator pedal to a throttle valve inside the throttle body. This results in reduced under-hood clutter and lower weight, as well as quicker and more accurate throttle actuation. A specially programmed "gain" rate between the throttle pedal and engine offers improved drivability and optimized engine response to suit specific driving conditions.

Honda's Drive-by-Wire throttle system evaluates the current driving conditions by monitoring throttle pedal position, throttle valve position, engine speed (rpm) and road speed. This information is used to define the throttle control sensitivity that gives Insight's throttle pedal a predictable and responsive feel that meets driver expectations. ........

 

[Magikhat]

I drove to my babysitters house which is around 15 miles away. There I got about 40mpg (all uphill). Turned the car off
Got back in the car to go home so the trip thing reset. On the way back I got 74mpg . was mostly downhill

Temp here in PA is around 50. The only thing that drives me crazy is when I hit that EV button and it says the engine is too cold. I curse at my car everytime that happens

 

[KlumzyDriver]

Great thought provoking testing results and comments! If Econ mode adjusts the climate control for more efficient operation, then take that out of the equation by turning it off (Moviemike might have already done this?). Can't get more efficient than "off".

 

[Hypermiler]

Not sure if my results would clarify for this thread since I really only use the econ mode. But that being said, in the warmer months driving between 55 and 65 mph I have been able to reach 63mpg or slightly higher.
Once the weather turned cold it was quite disappointing, for me, to ONLY hit 50-55mpg. I only use Sport mode when I feel like playing around and am not concerned with my mpg.

 

[maynyrd150]

I drive normal mode majority of the time but prefer econ mode for city driving speeds (25-40mph). It helps keep me in the blue throttle zone easier. I think the biggest benefit of econ mode is making it easier to stay in the blue zone(at least for me). I'm averaging at least 40mpg per fill up with cold temperature, 5-10 mile trips, and driving it like my previous cars. I love the car just in general so fuel economy doesn't matter as much to me. I must say I do like checking the fuel economy numbers after every trip and get amazed when I pull off a high number.

+1

I also think city driving is where ECON shines.

 

[maynyrd150]

Great thought provoking testing results and comments! If Econ mode adjusts the climate control for more efficient operation, then take that out of the equation by turning it off (Moviemike might have already done this?). Can't get more efficient than "off".

I've done this on my 50 mile commute and didn't notice any change in the frequency the ICE cycled on or MPG. All winter driving so far though, so maybe it wants the ICE on occasionally to maintain operating temp.

 

[maynyrd150]

38 MPG solid average since getting the car in January on a 50 mile, rolling hill commute with net elevation change of 6 feet.

60% of that two lane (60MPH)
40% expressway (70MPH)

average temperature between 0-20F
Didn't see a change on the first oil change either

 

[PHILBERT]

Not sure if my results would clarify for this thread since I really only use the econ mode. But that being said, in the warmer months driving between 55 and 65 mph I have been able to reach 63mpg or slightly higher.
Once the weather turned cold it was quite disappointing, for me, to ONLY hit 50-55mpg. I only use Sport mode when I feel like playing around and am not concerned with my mpg.

Long Island, yes! Another NY 2019 Insight owner! Welcome.

No doubt temperature is a major factor. That one day it was 55 degrees, I got a huge bump up into the 60's MPG, but we are still experiencing 30's and 40's most of the time up here. If I can get 50+ MPG in this cold, I'm happy.

OK, I am starting to wonder if my battery doesn't charge up as high as others because I purchased a NY 2019 Insight with the 10 year battery warranty. I say this because I have seen videos where others are getting higher charge, even full charge when I have to "Sport Mode it" and "max regen it" to get that high. I believe NY and CA residents get 10 years warranty, and all other states get only 8 years. Is it possible Honda dialed back the charge rate some on 10 warranty states like NY and CA?

Phil

 

[Moviemike]

Great thought provoking testing results and comments! If Econ mode adjusts the climate control for more efficient operation, then take that out of the equation by turning it off (Moviemike might have already done this?). Can't get more efficient than "off".

Yup I almost always drive with climate control off, and certainly during the test runs above. I ordinarily turn on the heater when the engine is running for other purposes.

With the weather warming my mpg is improving. I got a 55 mpg and a 60 mpg tankful and working hard now to reach a 65 mpg tankful before my highway trip next week.

My hobby is to develop the skills to get top mpg. If people can get better mpg with the ECON off then on, I'd like to know how they do it, so I can start doing too.

 

[Moviemike]

?...OK, I am starting to wonder if my battery doesn't charge up as high as others because I purchased a NY 2019 Insight with the 10 year battery warranty. I say this because I have seen videos where others are getting higher charge, even full charge when I have to "Sport Mode it" and "max regen it" to get that high. I believe NY and CA residents get 10 years warranty, and all other states get only 8 years. Is it possible Honda dialed back the charge rate some on 10 warranty states like NY and CA? Phil

Naaa ..I see that as extremely unlikely.

It's all in the conditions you are driving-in, in combination with what you are asking / demanding of the drivetrain.

I think a difference between hybrids (in general) and non-hybrids is that hybrids are more mpg sensitive to driver inputs and overall driving style.

 

[insightfully]

OK, I am starting to wonder if my battery doesn't charge up as high as others because I purchased a NY 2019 Insight with the 10 year battery warranty. I say this because I have seen videos where others are getting higher charge, even full charge when I have to "Sport Mode it" and "max regen it" to get that high. I believe NY and CA residents get 10 years warranty, and all other states get only 8 years. Is it possible Honda dialed back the charge rate some on 10 warranty states like NY and CA?

Naaa ..I see that as extremely unlikely. It's all in the conditions you are driving-in, in combination with what you are asking / demanding of the drivetrain. I think a difference between hybrids (in general) and non-hybrids is that hybrids are more mpg sensitive to driver inputs and overall driving style.

Confirming that there isn't a battery programming or design difference in the "longer warranty" states (CA, CT, DE, ME, MD, MA, NJ, NY, OR, PA, RI, VT, WA), as I'm part of this state list and see "full battery charge" regularly while in Econ mode.

Driving style, environmental conditions, and route/terrain are the more likely factors for reported battery (and mpg) variability.

For those wondering what this "longer warranty" talk is all about, follow link below - where we who live in the "B" states mentioned above have a longer year/miles coverage for "emissions-related" warranty items: http://owners.honda.com/Documentum/Warranty/Partslist/2019_Honda_Insight_-_EWPL_APL08356_SIS.pdf

 

[fernandocolon]

First tank 384 miles
8.10 gallons to fill
47.4 mpg all in normal mode

 

[Gen3_Insight]

These are my fuel economy numbers for my last couple fill ups. I am averaging about 5.2 litres per 100kms.......that is about 45mpg.

These fuel numbers around on the tail end of Canadian winter on snow tires. The economy has slowly been getting better with the milder weather.

I will follow-up with updated fuel economy numbers in the warmer weather on all season tires.

 

[andrew28]

My Insight must be enjoying the warm weather(70F) today like I did. Getting 62mpg and 77mpg on two 5 mile trips via eco mode. :grin:

 

[hasarad]

Answers will vary here, but you will do really excellently if you follow @hasarad's advice and just stick within the blue region of the "tachometer" as much as you can. In my experience, using EV only mode makes the car more willing to dig into the battery's charge than it would by itself. OTOH, the car is going to drone if you run out of battery and need to use gas to climb a hill.

Thanks so much mgldan for the feed back. So far we've only just begun to drive the Insight (wife's car) and it's only reading 121 miles in the 15 days we've had it. It's mostly a city car with lots of short trips across town @ maybe 10 miles RT and freeway once 30 miles RT. We've gotten 67.2, 71.0, 110, 58.4 etc.. however the overall average only shows around 46.4mpg so somehow those numbers don't average out.

When we got the car it was probably 2 gallons shy of full since the range indicated 460 miles. The sales guy said the car is suppose to come FULL, but instead of wasting a ticket for a Full Fill Up, take the car and when you're ready for your next tank come in and we'll Fill it up for you NO CHARGE!

I was shorted on the initial tank of fuel as well. I'm impressed you were able to work out a free tank of fuel! I only started tracking mileage after my first fill-up as it was obvious the numbers weren't right when comparing actual to indicated mileage.

If sticking within the blue range, I never hear the engine drone. If in the blue, the engine will always provide enough energy to offset what is being consumed. I've actually gone up hills in 3/4 of the blue range and have had the battery level increase. That said, big hills are traversed a bit slowly. I plan my trips to allow enough time for this, so no biggie. With respect the the EV button, I use the Nigel Tufnel method. I only employ it if I just need that "little extra push over the cliff" (the last bit of a hill before the downhill and free energy via regen). Other than that, I stay in ECO. There is a two-bar difference between when the ICE kicks in in ECO (4) vs. EV (2). For me, it's the last little hill before I make the turn onto my street - which is a downhill to my house.

 

[PHILBERT]

Where is the mileage?...like "where is the beef"??? (Love those videos, Verdier)

It's HERE! :grin:

Today (Saturday) we FINALLY got some temps in the 70's, and I ran a total of NINE, 36 mile loops on I-84 (354 miles) between NY exits 5A and 3E for MPG testing. This is the same course as my initial colder weather testing at the beginning of this thread. It's as flat an area as I can find around here. Soft rolling hills in some spots. I did Sport Mode, Normal Mode and Econ Mode testing at 75 MPH, 65 MPH and 55 MPH (which everyone wanted to kill me for going so slow...even though I stayed in the right lane). I don't blame them, but it's the only way to ensure the test is the same at all these speeds.

Started this all at 74 degrees, peaked briefly at 80, then finished at 73 degrees. No air conditioning. Just the fans and cracks in the back windows. Dry weather. A little wind going west, but push going east again. Medium traffic. My favorite BP gas at 87 octane. The station is about 15 miles from the course, and I ran Sport Mode with a led foot going to the test area and coming back to the station. It read 50.2 MPG for the tank, which only took 6.8 gallons to refill. With 3.7 gallons left, I could have gone another 185.7 miles for a total of 539.7 miles!

75 MPH SPORT MODE = 42.5 MPG
75 MPH NORM MODE = 42.7 MPG
75 MPH ECON MODE = 43.9 MPG

65 MPH SPORT MODE = 49.0 MPG
65 MPH NORM MODE = 52.8 MPG
65 MPH ECON MODE = 52.5 MPG

55 MPH SPORT MODE = 56.8 MPG
55 MPH NORM MODE = 65.9 MPG
55 MPH ECON MODE = 62.9 MPG

And my 25 mile gas run from my favorite BP gas station to my house (almost the same elevation on both ends) with a mix of 45, 55, 45, 40, 55, 40, 45, 40, 55, 45, 40, 30, 40, 45, 40, 30 and 45 MPH zones with mixed traffic...and plenty of traffic lights yielded a whopping 72.7 MPG! And I was using Adaptive Cruise Control all the way, and even stabbed the gas once or twice in the 55 zones to get around some mud ducks. Yes, regen paddles when I saw traffic slowing. Nothing that "hymermiler" in nature. Not even even strictly "blue zone" starts, as that would have slowed dense traffic a bit much.

So, hows that for MPG?

Phil

 

[Verdier]

Thanks for the compliment. 😎

 

[Richsaint]

Regarding the difference between your trips and the mileage it shows the car was probably left idling on the lot at some point.

When I got my Insight it has 50 miles on it at something stupid like 16 mpg, this has been continually true for new cars I buy. I think when they pull them off the truck sometimes they’ll leave them sit turned on while they move them around the lot.

Other than that I cannot imagine why they’d have such terrible mileage.