[franko1927]

gas mileage vs oil change

I did a test. I had dealer change oil at 7000 miles and indicator at 50%. Reason, I had a coupon that expired in 2 weeks. Reluctant? Yes. Service rep. called Honda Eng'r. and they said it's preferable to leave in until it registers around 10%, but Honda Syn. is OK. Now, after 300 miles , nearly same driving conditions. Temp around 70 deg. (Gal. vs mileage) was 49.1. Before ,with factory Moly in oil avg.51.4,
My son who is a chemist with an oil co. said he only uses German 0-20 oil with moly in all his cars . Well, it was reported Honda factory oil has 800 MG .Moly. .Honda Syn. with Zero. Anybody want to comment.?

 

[gerryzub]

If you want Moly here it is. I have used it for years in many cars. Don't use it in a Motorcycle with wet clutch. You'll be replacing the clutch if you do.



https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-2009-Anti-Friction-Treatment/dp/B003U4O414/ref=sr_1_2?crid=YJRC9HSPZTEV&keywords=molybdenum+oil+additive&qid=1550260723&s=gateway&sprefix=molib,aps,146&sr=8-2

 

[insightfully]

I did a test. I had dealer change oil at 7000 miles and indicator at 50%. Reason, I had a coupon that expired in 2 weeks. Reluctant? Yes. Service rep. called Honda Eng'r. and they said it's preferable to leave in until it registers around 10%, but Honda Syn. is OK. Now, after 300 miles , nearly same driving conditions. Temp around 70 deg. (Gal. vs mileage) was 49.1. Before ,with factory Moly in oil avg.51.4,
My son who is a chemist with an oil co. said he only uses German 0-20 oil with moly in all his cars . Well, it was reported Honda factory oil has 800 MG .Moly. .Honda Syn. with Zero. Anybody want to comment.?

See this "1st Oil Change" thread from post #14 forward, for mention of IDEMITSU oil with 800 ppm molybdenum.

 

[dabfaces]

Is it just me? In the first 10,123 miles I was able to run in Sport Mode and average about 45mpg give or take around town. Since my first oil change, even running in Econ Mode, I didn't even get 35mpg on a trip I usually get 55+ on.

Does it need a little time to, I dunno, recalibrate or something? lol I know that's probably ridiculous, but alas, here I am.

I also noticed it felt differently. Like the throttle in sport mode was much touchier, as if I was getting maximum power with 1/4 of the throttle, when before it took at least half throttle to get there.

It appears to be running fine. The engine sounds smooth again (was a bit grumpy towards the end of that first round of oil), everything seems in order.

Any ideas or should I give it a couple days?

 

[andrew28]

From what I have read so far... Everyone seems to be getting even better MPG after an oil change. Did you get the oil change at the dealership?

 

[hasarad]

Check the oil level. Oil should be in the center of the dipstick range. It's possible it was overfilled. The insight takes 3.5 quarts with filter. Going by the book, the first oil change change does not involve a filter change. The dealer may have put the full 3.5 quarts in regardless which would mean a slight overfill. I can't see that causing such a large drop in MPG numbers. You shouldn't be seeing a 20+ percent decline after an oil change unless outside temps went from the 80s to the 20s. How long have you been tracking MPG after the oil change? Don't let single trips worry you. The average over an entire tank would be a better indicator.

 

[franko1927]

I had same experience. My mileage dropped from 51 avg to 45 avg. in first 5 miles and avg. around 47 for next 300 miles. Now, as I reported previously my Honda dealer said they installed Honda Syn oil. . I checked with parts dep't days later, and he said they use multi grade approved by Honda. In fact, he said bring in your container and I will sell you same oil for $3.00 / qt. They buy 5 barrels at a time. I asked, who from. He said , lowest bidder. Now, doesn't that give you warm fuzzies?
Later, I was at my Mobil station and the new sign says. , our gasoline contains 10% ethanol. My mileage dropped immediately . It go so bad that I added 3 gal. premium and mileage increased slightly. After about 375 miles I filled up with BJ's gas and mileage immediately went up to 52 mpg. and stayed there. Supposedly, EL cheapo , no additives gas. They sell more gas in our area than all stations combined. Two tankers a day avg.
It looks like we all have two (2) problems, oil and gas. Do we need moly in oil similar to what Honda used on orig. fill, and what brand of gas is best for or insights?. I like folks to tell us their experiences.

 

[andrew28]

I had same experience. My mileage dropped from 51 avg to 45 avg. in first 5 miles and avg. around 47 for next 300 miles. Now, as I reported previously my Honda dealer said they installed Honda Syn oil. . I checked with parts dep't days later, and he said they use multi grade approved by Honda. In fact, he said bring in your container and I will sell you same oil for $3.00 / qt. They buy 5 barrels at a time. I asked, who from. He said , lowest bidder. Now, doesn't that give you warm fuzzies?
Later, I was at my Mobil station and the new sign says. , our gasoline contains 10% ethanol. My mileage dropped immediately . It go so bad that I added 3 gal. premium and mileage increased slightly. After about 375 miles I filled up with BJ's gas and mileage immediately went up to 52 mpg. and stayed there. Supposedly, EL cheapo , no additives gas. They sell more gas in our area than all stations combined. Two tankers a day avg.
It looks like we all have two (2) problems, oil and gas. Do we need moly in oil similar to what Honda used on orig. fill, and what brand of gas is best for or insights?. I like folks to tell us their experiences.

Majority of Honda dealerships don't use Honda genuine oil for the bulk oil they purchase. My dealership charges $40 for the synthetic blend bulk oil and $95 for the full synthetic Honda oil in the plastic bottles. I have also seen reports of aftermarket oil filters from oil changes done at some dealerships.


Edit: It's 89.95 not $95.

 

[ATMANBA]

Check the oil level. Oil should be in the center of the dipstick range. It's possible it was overfilled. The insight takes 3.5 quarts with filter. Going by the book, the first oil change change does not involve a filter change. The dealer may have put the full 3.5 quarts in regardless which would mean a slight overfill. I can't see that causing such a large drop in MPG numbers. You shouldn't be seeing a 20+ percent decline after an oil change unless outside temps went from the 80s to the 20s. How long have you been tracking MPG after the oil change? Don't let single trips worry you. The average over an entire tank would be a better indicator.

where did you see it’s only 3.5Q I called a few dealerships and they all said 4Q. I changed it with the oil in between the notches on the dip stick and I have seen a loss in mpg. I changed it myself with a genuine Honda filter and Castrol synthetic oil. I went from 51 to 48 mpg

 

[andrew28]

where did you see it’s only 3.5Q I called a few dealerships and they all said 4Q. I changed it with the oil in between the notches on the dip stick and I have seen a loss in mpg. I changed it myself with a genuine Honda filter and Castrol synthetic oil. I went from 51 to 48 mpg

 

[insightfully]

Also see attached page, which mentions 3.5 qt oil volume with filter change, or 3.3 qt without filter change.

 

[insightfully]

where did you see it’s only 3.5Q I called a few dealerships and they all said 4Q. I changed it with the oil in between the notches on the dip stick and I have seen a loss in mpg. I changed it myself with a genuine Honda filter and Castrol synthetic oil. I went from 51 to 48 mpg

Maybe the dealers were generalizing/estimating OR confusing with the Accord Hybrid, which takes 3.7 qt oil without filter change, and 4.0 qt with filter change? (pg 663 in 2019 Accord Hybrid Manual)

 

[insightfully]

Also see attached page, which mentions 3.5 qt oil volume with filter change, or 3.5 qt without filter change.

Oops - mistyped and can't edit any longer, so adding here: it's 3.5 qt oil with filter change, or 3.3 qt without filter change for the Insight.

 

[andrew28]

Attached are technical data sheets comparing base Idemitsu 0W20 to their Zepro 0W20 formulation.

Idemitsu calls themselves "pioneers of the 0W20" having originally partnered with Honda 20 years ago. The base 0W20 provides "superior engine cleanliness" while the Zepro 0W20 is enhanced to reduce engine friction and improve fuel economy. Note when purchasing that there are 2 formulations of the Zepro 0W20 - one with Molybdenum, and one for Dexos1 (GM-targeted spec).

The lower viscosity (premium) Zepro is touted as an "ultra low friction synthetic" and "optimized for vehicles equipped with 'stop-start' technology." With a hybrid, engine wear occurs during starts when the engine runs momentarily with low/no oil pressure. The moly provides extra lubrication during those start times, even with the oil's low viscosity.

These articles compare Zepro to conventional oil and cite horsepower, torque, and fuel economy benefits related to friction reduction, though I couldn't find an article directly comparing the base/Zepro Idemitsu formulations. But depending on mpg impact, the price difference could be made up within a few gas fill-ups.
- https://motoiq.com/can-an-oil-change-make-more-power-we-test-idemitsu-zero-eco-medalist-and-find-out/
- https://motoiq.com/can-oil-improve-your-fuel-economy/

I'm MANY miles off from my first oil change, but when the time comes I plan to select the Zepro 0W20 Moly for myself.

Actually, Honda has three 0W-20s that the company is now selling as "Genuine Honda Motor Oil."

Two of the 0W-20s that Honda sells as Genuine Honda are bottled by ConocoPhillips (COP). One is a semi-synthetic, the other a full synthetic. Essentially they are the same as the two products that COP bottles for Ford under the Motorcraft label.

The other 0W-20 weight sold by Honda is manufactured by Idemitsu. That one, and only that one, has (as mentioned above) approximately 800 ppm of molybdenium. Honda imported it principally for use in its Insight hybrid, but it can be used in any automobile that specifies a 0W-20 weight oil. Connoisseurs of motor oil love it for its whopping dose of molybdenium which, arguably, is important (if not crucial) for proper lubrication in an engine that is subject to frequent starts and stops (i.e., a hybrid, in other words) and/or frequent cold- and semi-cold starts (again, a hybrid). Whether it offers any special or unique long-term anti-wear benefits when used in a conventional motor has been, and remains, the subject of considerable debate. The stuff is also expensive in comparison to other 0W-20s. https://www.crvownersclub.com/threads/honda-ow-20-fully-synthetic-or-not.15207/#post-102077

I'm not even sure which version of the Honda full synthetic my dealership has on hand. Going to ask my dealership to see if they will allow me to bring in my own oil like @PHILBERT's dealership. If they say yes, I'm going to buy the idemitsu zepro, but my 1st oil change is still months away so not to worry yet.

 

[insightfully]

It looks like we all have two (2) problems, oil and gas. Do we need moly in oil similar to what Honda used on orig. fill, and what brand of gas is best for or insights?. I like folks to tell us their experiences.

With regard to maintaining molybdenum content in oil, I think moly protection is highly desired for engine longevity. The two options to achieve this are to use a product with high moly content (e.g. Idemitsu Zepro) OR to consistently add Liquid Moly as @gerryzub suggested and @jc_vt mentioned when responding to your posts on oil/mpg topic from Feb 2019.

If you change your own oil OR trust the dealer/mechanic to use what is brought, buying the best quality oil makes sense; otherwise, if oil type and moly content is questionable (as in your mention in post #14 of separate thread) you can best independently manage/control using a Liquid Moly additive. Personally, I'm now leaning toward the additive approach.

===
With regard to gas, there are references interwoven through these "Real World" and "Oddity" threads on brands, ethanol, and octane effects on observed mpg. These may be helpful reading to start.

 

[markyp32]

Do you even know if they put 0W-20 oil in your car ? You mentioned they put a "Multi Grade" oil in your car but by the way it sounds, getting Oil from the "Lowest Bidder" could also mean they don't even know or check what Grade the Oil is ! I'd change the Oil myself if I was you. Use the Zepro 0W-20 and a Honda Genuine Oil Filter.

 

[insightfully]

It's kinda crummy not to be able to trust your dealer... but given the info they shared and if still in doubt, there's option to proactively add an oil supplement. It's a little pricy, but you'll know what you're adding. Since mpg has noticeably dropped after the oil change, the additive could help determine the impact of oil quality (?). The Mr. Moly additive claims to reduce friction and fuel consumption, and protect during dry starts that are common for a hybrid.

From Mr. Moly additive page:

Moly uses the oil as a carrier to circulate through the engine and plate onto all points of contact under heat and pressure. Once the Moly has plated (in ~2 hrs of driving time), the Moly remains on surfaces and helps protect during 'dry starts' (after engine has been turned off). The primary result is the reduction of friction, which lowers operating temperature, reduces wear, reduces fuel consumption, reduces emissions, prolongs engine life, and increases horsepower.​

 

[hasarad]

I'm not convinced an additive is the way to go. Back about 30 years ago, my stepfather was a proponent of Slick 50. He used it in his airplane and told me the engine would run even if it had a catastrophic oil leak or oil pump failure in flight. My thought at the time was, why wouldn't oil manufacturers bake such a product into their own products and charge more? Fast forward to today, and I find there are pros and cons to additives - none of which I'm willing to bet my car's warranty on.

Here's a little blurb on Slick 50: Slick 50 and other engine oil additives - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

To quote from Mobil in the article, "The use of an engine oil additive is not recommended, either by Mobil or by virtually any vehicle manufacturer. In fact, it may void your new-car warranty."

I'll stick with Mobil 1 and doing the oil change myself. I suppose if one had to go to the dealer if they lacked the means to do the change themselves, one could always purchase the oil of their liking and ask the dealer to fill with that... but how can you ensure the dealer actually did it?

 

[insightfully]

Agree that first choice is to change one's own oil to have confidence in what's being used... but it's hard to rely on the work of others, even if you spend extra money to supply your own oil, like info @franko1927 conveyed as learning about dealer oil source.

Given wide differences in engine oils, I think a manufacturer would be hard-pressed to cite a single product as invalidating the engine warranty. Oil manufacturers sell what's price-competitive and meets basic engine requirements in commercial grade engine oil. Additives like Slick 50 (and others quoted at top of Skepdic article) use teflon (PTFE) which breaks down at ~650F, while Molybdenum can withstand temperatures up to 2000F. The article mostly comments on PTFE products, and closes with question on whether protection from heavy metals (zinc, moly) are worthwhile, rather than fully assessing their different properties.

There are differences in additive technology/knowledge over time (buyer beware), but I believe in the protective properties of 'metal on metal' and fundamental concept of 'like protecting like.' I plan to use high moly-content oil like Idemitsu Zepro OR a moly additive (similar to info franko1927 quoted from his oil chemist son).

 

[andrew28]

how can you ensure the dealer actually did it?

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/products/free-test-kits/
One could send it to a laboratory for an oil analysis but I like to think the dealerships around my area aren't that shady due to plenty of competing Honda dealerships nearby.

• Specifically formulated for Honda ultra fuel efficient vehicles only
• Provides protection from corrosion and reduces engine wear
• Fights formation of sludge and other engine deposits
• Excellent engine protection under a wide range of operation conditions and temperature extremes
• Eases cold starting during extreme weather conditions
• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0746Y8XHP/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

I'm kind of wondering if this is the Honda genuine oil made by idemitsu(mentions specifically formulated for Honda ultra fuel efficient vehicles only). Even if not, it's probably still pretty good for our Insights, and it would make requesting this particular oil at the dealership easier than asking to bring my own.


@insightfully

American Honda recommends against the use of any oil additives other than those already blended in the stock oil. Such supplemental additives are unnecessary when using quality oils displaying the Starburst certification symbol. Additives cannot prolong the life of a used oil, because the oil molecules have been broken down. The use of oil additives will increase your cost of ownership, and can lead to engine damage. http://m.owners.honda.com/faqs/motor-oil

Probably not a good idea to dump oil additives no matter how good the benefits are if Honda recommends against it. Which could give them an excuse to deny warranty on the engine down the road(Moly with Zepro is an exception since it's already blended into the oil).