[Wifey'sInsight]

Electrical issues are so hard to diagnose on modern day cars due to so many sensors controlling different parts of the car. When did it happen during your first time experiencing this? I would bring it back to the dealership so they can forward this issue to Honda and have a record on file that this happened to you again.

It went in for the first time as well. The fact that it repeated, allowed me the opportunity to document the error while it was happening.

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

First issue was march, a week or two after taking ownership. It's been posted about under the "complaints" thread. Dealer reset bcm, cleared codes. Hasn't happened again since, until this past Friday.

 

[insightfully]

The issue that I do have is the different systems that are affected.
DRL fail completely (NO illumination, even when selected on stalk). (Stalk)(headlight assemblies)(BCM)
Turn signal indicators fail to display, no "clicking" sound. (DII)(BCM)
HighBeams fail completely. (Stalk?)(Headlight assemblies)(BCM)
Road departure mitigation fails (Camera)(BCM)
LKAS fails (Camera)(BCM)
Auto high beams, and auto lighting fail (sensor on dash).(BCM)
Brake maintenance indicator. (ABS, Brakes, BCM, PCM etc...)

To your point, these all likely connected thru the BCM... but since a few are interrelated, I'm also wondering if one factor is the true "root cause" and the others appear as symptoms because their programming is linked to each other (?):
- LKAS, RDM, Turn Signals & Brakes: RDM and LKAS get suspended when the turn signals or brakes are used
- DRL & Brakes: DRL turns on only when parking brake is deactivated, and parking brake doesn't release if Brake System Indicator or ABS Indicator are on
- LKAS, RDM & Auto-High Beam: all use camera input, as you mentioned - any scratches/nicks noticed in camera's field of vision?

Brake system seems like a potential common theme between LKAS, RDM, Turn Signals and DRL operation. High Beam relation, not so sure...

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

To your point, these all likely connected thru the BCM... but since a few are interrelated, I'm also wondering if one factor is the true "root cause" and the others appear as symptoms because their programming is linked to each other (?):
- LKAS, RDM, Turn Signals & Brakes: RDM and LKAS get suspended when the turn signals or brakes are used
- DRL & Brakes: DRL turns on only when parking brake is deactivated, and parking brake doesn't release if Brake System Indicator or ABS Indicator are on
- LKAS, RDM & Auto-High Beam: all use camera input, as you mentioned - any scratches/nicks noticed in camera's field of vision?

Brake system seems like a potential common theme between LKAS, RDM, Turn Signals and DRL operation. High Beam relation, not so sure...

The camera area was clear of any obstruction.

As to the comment about the daytime running lights, the car in exactly the same gear and parking brake application, did illuminate after the errors cleared, when the vehicle restarted. Also even when placed in park and the parking brake applied after driving, they do stay illuminated, even when stalk is manually moved to off. (I'm the DRL expert, due to my proclivity for drive ins).

One difference from the first time vs this time is that the back-up camera was functional this time. I only have one right turn between the shops, I didn't notice if the right mirror camera was functioning.

By process of elimination, I either have a camera issue or bcm issue. I hadn't even realized the auto high-beam functionality of the center mounted camera, but it would make sense that I was having lighting issues, beyond what the "warning" told me.

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

Also the parking brake did in fact release when the Brake Service Light was illuminated. I always engage it when parked.

I know for a fact that when you manually adjust the headlight stalk, it sends a signal to the BCM, it's not directly wired to any lights. So lets pose this hypothesis.

A connection issue, or software issue with the camera sensor. It gets stuck in an open loop, or loses communication with the BCM. Since the camera is tied in with RDM, LKAS, and the headlights through auto-high beam, this makes sense of why the daytime running lights and high beams, didn't work.

Since the lighting is all tied into the BCM, and since DRL aren't federally mandated, there probably isn't a back-up for DRL setting on the stalk. The headlights and turn signals are most likely designed to be capable of activating their respective lights due to federal mandates, even in the event of a BCM failure, and Honda knows that if there is an issue with federally mandated safety equipment, that means recalls.

Since LKAS and RDM, have some ties to stability control, that could explain the brake system illumination.

Just trying to work the problem backwards.

The fact that the back-up camera failed the first time and not the second could point to a slightly different issue than the first time, or that the BCM didn't seem to get as confused as the first time. Who knows, maybe the dealership reinstalled the software from the first recall, and now the back-up camera has a backup in the software.

Also I know for a fact that the "clicking noise" from the turn signal is a function of the BCM in most cars.

So by basic logic, the issue is either the camera module, or the bcm, or their respective wiring. If the camera module isn't the culprit, the BCM is tied into literally EVERYTHING, oh boy!

 

[insightfully]

By process of elimination, I either have a camera issue or bcm issue. I hadn't even realized the auto high-beam functionality of the center mounted camera, but it would make sense that I was having lighting issues, beyond what the "warning" told me.

Hmm... so maybe we've come full circle back to your BCM theory then. CMBS (and ACC/LSF) also use the camera, though in combination with the radar. It seems like they would have thrown alerts as well, if camera was the issue (?).

Did you notice while driving if the Traffic Sign recognition worked? That's the other system that solely relies on camera. I don't see it in your pictures, but you probably weren't driving by speed limit signs when you took those.

CMBS = Radar + Camera, starting at speeds >3 mph
ACC/LSF = Radar + Camera, for speeds up to 90 mph
LKAS = Camera only, for speeds 45-90 mph
RDM = Camera only, for speeds 45-90 mph
Sign Recognition = Camera only
Auto High Beam = Camera + Light Sensor​

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

Hmm... so maybe we've come full circle back to your BCM theory then. CMBS (and ACC/LSF) also use the camera, though in combination with the radar. It seems like they would have thrown alerts as well, if camera was the issue (?).

Did you notice while driving if the Traffic Sign recognition worked? That's the other system that solely relies on camera. I don't see it in your pictures, but you probably weren't driving by speed limit signs when you took those.

CMBS = Radar + Camera, starting at speeds >3 mph
ACC/LSF = Radar + Camera, for speeds up to 90 mph
LKAS = Camera only, for speeds 45-90 mph
RDM = Camera only, for speeds 45-90 mph
Sign Recognition = Camera only
Auto High Beam = Camera + Light Sensor​

Sign recognition wasn't working for that drive. I wonder if CMBS uses the camera for pedestrian/animal detection, or cross traffic detection, and was functional due the radar portion of the system. ACC was working though, although we don't understand what it uses the camera for, the camera can't detect true depth, just a simple algorithm based on aperture focus to estimate a distance from an object.

PS, some of those pictures were while I was driving, I know. I'm a naughty boy.

 

[insightfully]

Sign recognition wasn't working for that drive. I wonder if CMBS uses the camera for pedestrian/animal detection, or cross traffic detection, and was functional due the radar portion of the system. ACC was working though, although we don't understand what it uses the camera for, the camera can't detect true depth, just a simple algorithm based on aperture focus to estimate a distance from an object.

PS, some of those pictures were while I was driving, I know. I'm a naughty boy.

Umm... please be careful while you're driving, especially if/when your other systems are going wonky. We want you to remain around for the forum, pictures or not.

For a visual of the radar and camera working together, I like this (non-Honda) video which demonstrates what the radar and camera read individually, and what can be detected when the two systems are used in "fusion" together. CMBS and ACC/LSF would use this "fusion" method to incorporate both the radar and camera inputs. The combined systems improve detection BUT also requires more programming choices from a manufacturer to tune the inputs.

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

Umm... please be careful while you're driving, especially if/when your other systems are going wonky. We want you to remain around for the forum, pictures or not.

For a visual of the radar and camera working together, I like this (non-Honda) video which demonstrates what the radar and camera read individually, and what can be detected when the two systems are used in "fusion" together. CMBS and ACC/LSF would use this "fusion" method to incorporate both the radar and camera inputs. The combined systems improve detection BUT also requires more programming choices from a manufacturer to tune the inputs.

I'm always careful, pictures "while driving" we taken at red lights.

 

[andrew28]

If one or more of these symptoms are present at the same time, chances are it’s an issue with the BCM, and not the statistically less likely situation of multiple vehicle features failing simultaneously. If the problems occur intermittently, however, you might need to look into other causes, such as a bad battery or alternator – which won’t provide the level of voltage required for normal operation – or an issue with the fuses or relays in the electrical system. Bad Body Control Module? Here's How to TellNAPA Know How Blog

Could it be possible this is being caused by a bad fuse to one of the sensors in the car since your symptoms are intermittent? @Johudso7 had an intermittent issue with his TPMS and the dealership fixed it by replacing a fuse plus reseated the wire harness to the ECM. https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/7...ht-general-discussion/2416-tire-pressure-monitoring-system-error.html#post14478


I could be wrong and just talking out of my ass.

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

Could it be possible this is being caused by a bad fuse to one of the sensors in the car since your symptoms are intermittent? @Johudso7 had an intermittent issue with his TPMS and the dealership fixed it by replacing a fuse plus reseated the wire harness to the ECM. https://www.gen3insight.com/forum/7...ht-general-discussion/2416-tire-pressure-monitoring-system-error.html#post14478


I could be wrong and just talking out of my ass.

They are testing the battery Saturday and re-inspecting everything. If this intermittent failure wasn't so far and few between, I'd lean more towards wiring/ground/fuse. But twice in 2 months, almost 4000 miles in between. And I live in NY, if it were a loose connection/ wiring issue, fuse filament etc... it should be a more prevalent issue.

 

[andrew28]

They are testing the battery Saturday and re-inspecting everything. If this intermittent failure wasn't so far and few between, I'd lean more towards wiring/ground/fuse. But twice in 2 months, almost 4000 miles in between. And I live in NY, if it were a loose connection/ wiring issue, fuse filament etc... it should be a more prevalent issue.

Really curious what you find out. Hope it's just something minor.

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

Really curious what you find out. Hope it's just something minor.

What I think it is? software issue with the bcm, or an issue with something in the camera assembly.

What the dealership will tell me it is, "a momentary software issue, we checked your battery and cleared the bcm codes."

It's all about documentation when under warranty, it's the only way I'll get something replaced when it actually fails.

 

[insightfully]

What I think it is? software issue with the bcm, or an issue with something in the camera assembly.

What the dealership will tell me it is, "a momentary software issue, we checked your battery and cleared the bcm codes."

It's all about documentation when under warranty, it's the only way I'll get something replaced when it actually fails.

Is there an option for you to see/download the codes before they clear them? Like would an OBDII reader or something else work? As with last time, it doesn't seem like the dealer will tell you otherwise...?

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

Is there an option for you to see/download the codes before they clear them? Like would an OBDII reader or something else work? As with last time, it doesn't seem like the dealer will tell you otherwise...?

I will find out this time. Last time I was under the mindset that it was a fluke.

BCM codes are generally manufacturer specific, and a generic obdII reader isn't always accurate. I don't have a Solus, or equivalent anymore, so I'll let their tech pull the codes.

 

[Carfreak09]

Sign recognition wasn't working for that drive. I wonder if CMBS uses the camera for pedestrian/animal detection, or cross traffic detection, and was functional due the radar portion of the system. ACC was working though, although we don't understand what it uses the camera for, the camera can't detect true depth, just a simple algorithm based on aperture focus to estimate a distance from an object.

PS, some of those pictures were while I was driving, I know. I'm a naughty boy.

With ACC, the camera is used to see the lane markings, which helps the car steer itself and know when your departing the lane. If the camera can’t detect lane markings, empty dotted lines show on the screen and the self steering function is disabled.

 

[insightfully]

With ACC, the camera is used to see the lane markings, which helps the car steer itself and know when your departing the lane. If the camera can’t detect lane markings, empty dotted lines show on the screen and the self steering function is disabled.

Based on the manual description, I think it's LKAS that helps keep the car centered in-lane (left/right), while ACC/LSF helps set following interval and accelerate/decelerate/brake when needed (forward/back). The features in the Sensing suite are pretty well-integrated together, and it's not always easy to pick each out.

 

[hasarad]

I believe ACC uses radar. LKAS uses camera.

 

[Carfreak09]

I believe ACC uses radar. LKAS uses camera.

Correct, but unless you have LKAS turned off manually, both systems are used in concert when using ACC to self navigate as long as your hands are on the wheel. I was just explaining that the camera would be used for this function to work and if his cam is still seeing the lines when ACC is engaged, it’s most likely a BCM issue.

 

[Wifey'sInsight]

Correct, but unless you have LKAS turned off manually, both systems are used in concert when using ACC to self navigate as long as your hands are on the wheel. I was just explaining that the camera would be used for this function to work and if his cam is still seeing the lines when ACC is engaged, it’s most likely a BCM issue.

They do work together, but are completely separate systems. ACC is purely radar based. LKAS, RDM can disrupt ACC if the driver drifts, or isn't providing steering input. ACC would only use the camera to "notice" objects entering the path of the radar, since radar isn't focused (ie. a pedestrian/ animal etc), but even then it's more of a CMBS function.